littlefella, I have no doubt at all that what you have posted above is what you were told. But I'm afraid the information you have been given is wrong in law.

A National Insurance Number ("NINo") is not purely about National Insurance Contributions and working, it has a far greater significance than that.

A NINo is available to anyone who is lawfully resident in the UK - even a visa national with 'no recourse' and 'no work' visa restrictions! I get so frustrated reading that members here have been refused the allocation of a NINo until such time that they are to start work or that they are actively seeking work. This is wrong.

I am going to refer you to a Court of Appeal Judgment. This judgment makes it clear that my understanding is correct.

The case is "The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions -v- Wilson" ([2006] EWCA Civ 882). The Judgment was promulgated on 29th June 2006. The full text of the Judgment can be found here. Pay particular attention to Para 39 of that Judgment which reads:

"The Secretary of State has made clear that a national insurance number can be applied for, and will be allocated, irrespective of any intention to work and without any conflict with a visa condition prohibiting a person from working in this country. The use of a national insurance number has a non-work-related function in the control of fraud in benefit claims. That view is supported by the contents of an internal departmental document, referred to as the "SNAP [Secure Number Allocation Procedure] Code", which contains guidance to officials on the operation of the relevant administrative arrangements. Thus, it was open to Mrs Wilson to apply for a national insurance number (as she eventually did) without prejudicing her immigration status or her application for leave to remain."

Now do take careful notice of the language used by Lord Justice Richards - notice it is NOT about being ready and able to work, it is NOT about having a job, it is NOT about actively looking for work. It is, according to the Court of Appeal, about proving identity and avoiding benefit fraud!

So, in summary, according to their Lordships and the evidence given by the Secretary of State, a lawfully resident visa national who applies for a National Insurance Number "... will be allowed one, irrespective of any intention to work and without any conflict with a visa condition prohibiting a person from working in this country".

So on the basis of this judgment, a NINo is an entitlement open to anyone who is qualified to request one.

quote:

Originally posted by caller:
I am looking forward to Tobias's polite (as ever) reply.

It is an entitlement and in a couple of months I will go heavily armed with the missus to prove the point.

Good on you Caller , at some point i may need to do the same, to colect more evidance for hopfuly ILR but was wondering from Tobias eariler post is there something we can do or state so we dont have to go so heavily armed and arguee the toss with them as i feel my volcabuary would let me down
cheers Andy

ps or just print the judgment and show them

Thobias, very intersting read, and I did say I was told this on the phone by the nice lady in an office who is supposed to have knowledge of this subject!
She pretty much made it clear that having a job first would mean the application would be simple compaired to lookiing for work!
I do wonder then how many people who applying for an NI no. and looking for work,were rejected ?
How many people who applied for NI no. and had got work or start date to work were rejected ?

Tony.

However the Gov. website says this;

Children born and resident in the UK are assigned an NI number shortley before their 16th birthday.
Persons from abroad looking to work in the UK,or to those to whom a number was not initially allocated as children,may apply for number through DWP.

If you don't have a NI number you must apply for one :
-as soon as you start work
-as soon as you or your partner claims benefit

To be able to apply you must be :
- over 16 years of age
- resident in Great Britain

Therefore if applying for ILR and are not working( no resource to public funds), then how can you claim entitlement to a NINO ?



Tony.

quote:

Children born and resident in the UK are assigned an NI number shortly before their 16th birthday.

I don't even think that is right. I think what happens is that if Child Benefit is being claimed for the child then yes "an NI number shortly before their 16th birthday.".

However it is clearly the case that Child Benefit is being legitimately claimed in respect of many children who were not actually born in the UK. For example I fully expect our Grace, who came to the UK aged 6, and who is 12 next week, to be allocated a NI number at the age of 16.

quote:

Originally posted by littlefella:
... Therefore if applying for ILR and are not working( no resource to public funds), then how can you claim entitlement to a NINO ?

Then why would you need a NINo? Entitlement is on qualification.

If you read the full text of the judgment you will see the Appeal is about a benefit claim that was made by Scott Wilson, the husband of the visa national - it was his claim for benefit but as the visa national was resident at the same address she too had to provide a NINo notwithstanding the fact Mrs Wilson was not claiming the benefit as she had a 'no recourse' and 'no work' restriction on her visa at the appropriate time.

One of the biggest shortcomings of the DWP, if not the biggest, as befits a Govt. dept. that has grown up, by and large, with one party in power - look at the date the DWP was formed - is that they have a tendency to train their staff in policy, rather than law.

Hence the confusion. If you are an employee, what chance do you have?

(edit) Sorry, should have added, you have to question why a dept. does that - but in my area of "specailism", and being employed by local govt. it is a constant that we have to deal with. it doesn't make for good relations.

yes I did read it and hence very good read!
According to gov website regarding NINO, nothing to do with claiming child benefit or not, you get your NINO shortly before your 16th birthday.
I have not mentioned anything to do with the claiming of child benefit etc etc regarding the Mr and Mrs Wilson case,
only quote from gov website, Which I am now being told by numerous people on this site to be wrong.
The point I was trying to make was exactly that,then why do you need a NINO.
If you don't need it then why apply for it?
If you are applying for ILR, that to me would mean your wife has FLR and hence quoting about ILR and no resource to public funds!!!!!!!

I was only trying to help those people applying for NINO.
It would seem that applying for a NINO,with proof of looking for a job(applying for work doesn't mean that you are or will work once you have the NINO)and armed with proof that they are entitled to a NINO from para 39 Mr and Mrs Wilson etc etc is by far the best and easiest route to take than actually getting a job,have interview job done....

I was under the impression that it was to stop people from applying for work, getting NINO, but then what is to stop that person from merely just applying,getting NINO then f****** off to their origin of birth and still claiming for all that they can........

www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/BeginnersGuideToTax

or

www.dwp.gov.uk/lifeevent/benefits/ni_number.asp

Tony

Tony, there is no contradiction between the Wilson Judgment and the Government websites you link to. The websites are both entirely consistent with the Wilson Judgment. No one is saying these websites are wrong.

Look again at the wording of the first website you link to, I will use bold print to emphasise the relevant language:

quote:

If you don't already have a NI number you must apply for one:

as soon as you start work
as soon as you or your partner claims benefit

So here it doesn't say you cannot have a NINo until one of those events occurs just that you must apply if you do not already have one once one of the events mentioned applies.

Also John says above:

quote:

However it is clearly the case that Child Benefit is being legitimately claimed in respect of many children who were not actually born in the UK. For example I fully expect our Grace, who came to the UK aged 6, and who is 12 next week, to be allocated a NI number at the age of 16.

Again if you look at the wording of the first link you will find:

quote:

If you are a parent or guardian and receiving Child Benefit, any children you care for will automatically get a card showing their NI number just before they reach the age of 16.

Again, this is entirely consistent with what John has said above.

The entitlement to a NINo is that the individual is over 16 years of age and is legally resident in the UK.

So you see there is nothing being said by John or myself that is inconsistent with the Wilson Judgment or the Government website. My gripe is about the unnecessary hoops that the Agency are making people jump through to obtain the NINo that they are entitled to - yes, they must check identity of course they must, they must check their entitlement to a NINo - but what they do NOT have to do is to check if an individual is actively seeking work or is applying for jobs and they certainly shouldn't be refusing the request for a NINo simply because the applicant has no 'proof' of seeking employment.

A NINo is only of use for the purposes specified, if an individual doesn't need a NINo - don't apply for one until you do!

I would say even if you don't need one still apply for one as soon as you can, it's another thing out of the way and also at the moment it's free

Hi everyone

I agree with IanB-UK. They always send a letter back to the applicant. it could be one of the evidence letter that we will use it for applying ILR too.

When I apply for the ISA at Nationwide,the official asked my NINO too.That could help you open the account.

Cheer

quote:

Originally posted by Kampol:
... When I apply for the ISA at Nationwide,the official asked my NINO too.That could help you open the account.

Providing an NINo is a requirement of the ISA scheme regarding identity and entitlement.

I originally posted reply's to the topic to try and make it easier for those applying for NINO,my wife got hers with no trouble,because she had started work without NINO,again no trouble.
She had her interview,got her NINO, no problem.
For those who intend to work, and legally can, there is no real need to try and get it before they are working, and have what appears to me to be trouble in getting it!
If I have time this week will read judgement again.
I did get a little angry with John for saying "I don't think even that is true ", these quotes came direct from links I posted.(just checked and yes I did post them after)
I would like to add that the last 3/4 years have been a real learning curve regards everything that is involved with everything from gaining my wife's, and stepson's visa to preparing for ILR(in June).

Tony

quote:

Originally posted by littlefella:
I originally posted reply's to the topic to try and make it easier for those applying for NINO ...

... I did get a little angry with John for saying "I don't think even that is true ", these quotes came direct from links I posted...

I have no doubt as to the genuineness of your intentions Tony and I am pleased you are taking an active part in the forum Community. Indeed I hope you continue to do so as it appears from your experience you have much to contribute.

Reading your last post you give the impression of being a little disappointed with some of the posts you have received in response to yours, particularly from John and myself. Please do not think for one second your integrity is being challenged; if that is the impression you have from my posts then I apologise unreservedly because that was certainly not my intention and I am certain that was not John’s intention.

If you look back at your first post on this topic you will see a couple of members took issue with the validity of the information you posted. I tend not to get involved in the bulk of topics as there are many members within the forum who can answer the vast majority of questions raised.

Often I will get involved in the discussion if I see the topic going 'off' factually on legal matters. I do this so that members are not confused or misinformed about the actual legal position on the issues being discussed. I don't have to do it but, if time permits, I often will.

I do not as a matter of course place links to legal texts in my posts. I do this purposely because to do so is more likely to cause more confusion – especially so if an Act or Statutory Instrument is being referred to. Legal language is a very peculiar beast that gives language and phrases specific legal meanings and interpretations. The layman will often read such texts and give them a ‘literal‘ yet simple interpretation without considering the legal context or interpretation. This is why I tend to ask questions when people seek assistance and then offer an opinion based on those answers after applying the relevant law.

As I see it the problem with your opening post was this:

quote:

Originally posted by littlefella:
Your NI no. is not an entitlement,it is for people who contribute towards their National Insurance.
If you are not working in any way shape or form then why would you require a National Insurance number if you are not contributing ?

As you see this statement is wrong in law for the reasons mentioned in my posts above. Anyone aged 16 and over who is legally resident in the UK is entitled to a NINo should they need one.

However, I entirely agree with you on:

quote:

Originally posted by littlefella:
… For those who intend to work, and legally can, there is no real need to try and get it before they are working, and have what appears to me to be trouble in getting it!

That makes perfect sense to me, but would also add that those who are (or who’s partner is) about to claim a benefit, tax credits or get an ISA and who are over 16 and are legally resident in the UK should also apply as and when they need a NINo.

That being said however, we have heard several times form members whose partner has had difficulty with potential employers because of the absence of a NINo – hence the reason for the apparently early applications.

Dealing with the matter John referred to, John was not implying that ‘you’ were wrong, he was simply suggesting that the information obtained from the website you were quoting from appeared wrong – and I agree with him. Again this is a good example why we should not take for granted information found on websites – even those from the Government! Often this information is an abridged version of the law and as such space restraints make it undesirable (for the sake of brevity) to include all possibilities. Just because some particular provision is not there in black-and-white in the abridged version does not mean that it isn’t provided within the law. Sometimes policy gets in the way of law, hence the need for appeals and challenges similar to the Wilson case. The law will always take priority over Government ‘guidelines’ and local ‘policy’.

Tony I see you are in Liverpool, we have regular Thailand-UK meetings in the North West – Warrington, St Helens, Liverpool, Chester – perhaps you and your wife might join us on the next one? They are usually great nights out

quote:

Dealing with the matter John referred to, John was not implying that ‘you’ were wrong, he was simply suggesting that the information obtained from the website you were quoting from appeared wrong – and I agree with him.

Tobias, absolutely right.

If only we could trust everything we can read on UK Government websites! One only has to look at the brand-new BIA website (ex-IND) to see it is deficient in many respects. For example, I suspect someone has overlooked the £68 (or whatever) fee for Citizenship Ceremony, that needs to be paid when Naturalisation is applied for.

Will keep that night out in mind,if the wife is up for it.
Sometimes work commitments get in the way of nights out,also news of "the tiny patter of little feet" on their way!!
And so the wife has informed me of plans that we should move to a bigger house!!
looking at my qoute of entitlement to NINO,by law now I know this to be incorrect.In practice though probably is a different matter as we know.

Tony

quote:

Originally posted by littlefella:
...In practice though probably is a different matter as we know.

Indeed it is, and that's why I get so bloody frustrated

And congratulations on your good news ... ... oh, and your new house

quote:

Originally posted by John:
However it is clearly the case that Child Benefit is being legitimately claimed in respect of many children who were not actually born in the UK. For example I fully expect our Grace, who came to the UK aged 6, and who is 12 next week, to be allocated a NI number at the age of 16.

Which is what happened with Poy's NI number (she came to the UK when she was 9).

However, before she received the card with her number on I, as the CHB claimant, received a form asking me to confirm what name she wanted on the card. Please be aware that they will not issue the number until you return this form.

quote:

Originally posted by Tobias:
we have heard several times form members whose partner has had difficulty with potential employers because of the absence of a NINo – hence the reason for the apparently early applications.

Fortunately Noi didn't have this problem as her employer was happy with a temporary number; TNddmmyyF (Temp Number,date of birth,Female) until she received her proper one.

Most large employers are aware of this, but problems can arise with smaller employers who are not as fully aware of the regulations as they should be. Hence, as Tobias says, the desire to obtain a NI number before starting work if possible.

My Mrs was refused a national insurance number and told that she could not have one till she started work.So 7 weeks into her employment sure enough (after numerous letters and phone calls) and also an interview at Bradford Benefits office she was finally issued one.In fact we made it just in time as the lady who interviewed my wife told me that if we had been called for the interview 3 days later we would have had to go to Leeds which is about 15 miles farther away than Bradford because they have moved all National Insurance enqiries /applications for West Yorkshire to Leeds.

quote:

My Mrs was refused a national insurance number and told that she could not have one till she started work

Mick, can you clarify please. When you say that she was refused a NINO, do you mean either of the following :-

1. she was refused an interview for a NINO, or
2. she actually had an interview, and they rejected her

In any case folks, as previously said, there is a way to force the issue .... claim Tax Credits ... even if on your facts no Tax Credits are actually due. In other words, don't worry about your income level and family circumstances meaning that no Tax Credits are due.

Complete a Tax Credits claim form. For a couple living together both of them must supply data, including their NINO! No NINO hold? Oh well, they will go through the procedure to allocate one!

quote:

Originally posted by John:
In any case folks, as previously said, there is a way to force the issue .... claim Tax Credits

John
I have looked at a few sites on Tax Credits but have only come across ones that you can claim if you have children. I don't.

Gary, there are two sorts of Tax Credits .... Working Tax Credit and Child Tax Credit. Clearly the latter sort can only be claimed if there is one or more children in the family.

But claims for Working Tax Credit are not dependent upon having any children in the family. This HMRC webpage gives more details.

S