Remember chaps, the law is the law. I have only commented on the law, I didn't write it, I don't necessarily agree with it - but I can only offer a legal opinion based upon the law as it stands and the facts presented.

It's not about what is right or wrong with the law or how unfair your think it is or it isn't, it is not about me agreeing or disagreeing with another member; but it is about the law and how the law is applied in the factual circumstances.

It doesn't matter how many if you chaps agree with each other about this issue, the law is still the law.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
So, Ray, can you explain your reasoning when you say that my statement "Indeed, to get the visa in the first place you have to show that you have made plans for when the marriage will take place." is not correct?

"when" the marriage will take place. is the critical part.

You cannot confirm a date, as it is not possible to book a registry office or church wedding without the couple being present. Your fiancé(e) cannot be present until after they have got a visa and travelled to the UK. Therefore the date or plans for the wedding do not form part of the fiancé(e) visa application. You merely undertake to marry in the UK within the time allotted.

You cannot show a definite confirmed booking, correct.

However, you can, and should, show that you have made some sort of plans for when you intend to marry. As the links previously provided confirm.

For example;
We intend to book our wedding at X registry office within y weeks of arrival in the UK. From what I have read elsewhere, I believe that it is even possible to obtain letter from the registry office confirming a provisional booking, subject to confirmation once the fiance is here and the formalities have been met. Although I don't think that is strictly necessary.

To say that you do not have to show anything is misleading and could lead to disappointment and heartbreak to any one who took your original remark at face value.

quote:

Originally posted by alvin:
However, why is it that the UK authorities adopt this stance? What is the rationale behind it and is this standard practice in the EU?
alvin

Just my guess, that it's to stop people coming into the UK to work without the intention of getting married.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:

To say that you do not have to show anything is misleading and could lead to disappointment and heartbreak to any one who took your original remark at face value.

That is just your opinion Nick. It is not a fact. In my now wife's fiancée application we did not include any details of dates or venues in our visa application, which was successful.

quote:

Originally posted by Tobias:

the law is still the law.

Mmmm, that would make an interesting thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
That is just your opinion Nick. It is not a fact.

It is fact, Ray, it is there in all the links I posted earlier.

quote:

In my now wife's fiancée application we did not include any details of dates or venues in our visa application, which was successful.

As pointed out to you some time ago in a different thread:

The rules and requirements have changed since your now wife applied.

But it is up to individuals. They can follow the official guidance, or they can take Ray's advice. Were I in the position of applying now, I know which I would do.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ray:
It is fact, Ray, it is there in all the links I posted earlier.

Are you referring to this :-

quote:

you plan to marry or register a civil partnership within a reasonable time (usually six months).....

That is not a requirement to give details of your wedding plans.

quote:

The rules and requirements have changed since your now wife applied.

What rule has changed?

The full quote, Ray is

quote:

How do I qualify to join my fiancé, fiancée or proposed civil partner in the UK?
You must show that:
you plan to marry or register a civil partnership within a reasonable time (usually six months).....
(my emphasis)

They are not asking for detailed plans, as they cannot be made until both parties are in the UK, but they are asking for some sort of plan.

quote:

What rule has changed?

Changes and amendments to theImmigration Rules.

Maybe you should read them. You might learn something.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray

What rule has changed?

I will clarify my question.

What rule has changed which means it is now a requirement that you give details of your wedding plans to obtain a fiancé(e) visa.

You are the expert on visa rules Nick, should be an easy question for you to answer.

re the above Nick/Ray - In our successful May 2006 applcation (after interview) for the time and price of a phone call/and stamp I took the better to be safe than sorry route and got a letter from the registry office.

In no way can it pin you down to a precise date/or firm commitment, but it must have satisfied the ECO. So a bit of a sham really as in this case the 'rules are rules', are not so black and white as they seem, and trust is applied this time on the side of applicants.

Hence, returning to my fiancee not being able to work issue - the rules are rules still makes no sense to me, but yes, Nick/Tobias I will have to go along with them - for the fear of my fiancee being deported for trying to earn around £5.15 per hour!

regards

alvin

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
Indeed, to get the visa in the first place you have to show that you have made plans for when the marriage will take place.

quote:

They are not asking for detailed plans, as they cannot be made until both parties are in the UK, but they are asking for some sort of plan.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
What rule has changed which means it is now a requirement that you give details of your wedding plans to obtain a fiancé(e) visa.

You are the expert on visa rules Nick, should be an easy question for you to answer.

I am by no means an expert on the immigration rules, Ray, but I am aware that they are frequently amended.

The main Immigration Rules page includes

quote:

This is a consolidated version of the current Immigration Rules. Any changes to this version will be highlighted in italic text from the date of the change being laid before Parliament and until 28 days after the change taking effect.

All Parliamentary 'Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules' issued since May 2003 are available at the bottom of this page.

Feel free to trawl through the 28 (if I counted correctly, I may have missed a couple) statements of changes in immigration rules since May 2003, plus the associated explanatory memoranda. I'm sure you'll find it. I'd rather simpley go by what the current versions of the rules and guidlines say.

If you look at the other links, you will see that DSPs chapter 13 is dated 28/09/06 and Guidance - Husbands, wives and partners (INF 4) is dated 03/04/06. Both these documents are regularly updated to reflect changes.

The personal experiences of members can obviously be of great benefit to those posting questions here. But we have to remember that rules and procedures do change.

For example. Were I to follow your lead, I would be posting that ILR is granted after 1 year and is free; because that's the way it was when Noi did it. But we all know that that is no longer the case. (I assume that you do know this, Ray.)

So, before offering advice based upon the rules and official guidance it is essential to check the current version of those rules and guidelines.

That is my opinion, anyway. Others may prefer out of date advice.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:

So, before offering advice based upon the rules and official guidance it is essential to check the current version of those rules and guidelines.

That is my opinion, anyway. Others may prefer out of date advice.

Well Nick, you continue to avoid answering the question I set. Presumable because you are unable to show :-

"What rule has changed which means it is now a requirement that you give details of your wedding plans to obtain a fiancé(e) visa."

I realise Nick that you would rather chew rusty razor blades before ever admitting that you are wrong, especially to me, but it is an important point which I am trying to make.

In the build up of an "evidence folder" some suggestions are made as to what to include. I have seen suggestions such as letters from Registry Offices etc. These "suggestions" then get transformed by reference and people are given the impression that they are "requirements". This is happening in the case of the fiancée visa.

Lets make it quite clear. The following are not necessary to obtain a fiancée visa :-

Any letter expressing intent to marry from a Registry Office.
Booking any venue or including a menu from Won Hung Lows Chinese restaurant.
Any receipt from aunt Flow’s dress shop.


What is necessary, in my own words :-

You need to prove that you have met. A photo of the two of you together in front of a recognizable landmark would suffice.
You have adequate means to support and house your fiancée.
You need to prove to the ECO that your relationship is genuine.

The last point is the most important one. The evidence required will vary according to the applicant. If it is an 18 year old non English speaking girl wanting to marry a 90 year old bloke who does not speak her language, then the evidence that the relationship is genuine is going to be significantly more that for a less extreme example.

It is not possible to prove your intention to marry. Not even if you were to swear on a stack of Bibles a foot high. You only need to state that it is you intention to marry in your covering letter.

Nick, just increasing the quantity of references and links does not substantiate your argument and make it any more correct.

quote:

Indeed, to get the visa in the first place you have to show that you have made plans for when the marriage will take place.

Nothing you have said has justified this statement. I will repeat. It's incorrect.



This, one of your own quotes, is all that is required concerning dates:-

quote:

you plan to marry or register a civil partnership within a reasonable time (usually six months).....

The old adage "when you are in a hole - stop digging" is a good one in this case.

Ray, I have shown you where the answer to your question is. Not my fault if you are too lazy to look.

I have not said that applicants must present the things on your list.

The links I have provided are all to government sites, apart from the checklist which is on the VAC site. Even that, though, is drawn from government advice. You may not like that, but it is so. Where else should one seek advice? From a died in the wool pedant who cannot accept that his experience is out of date?

They all say that fiance visa applicants must show that they have made some plans for the wedding. Not definite firm commitments, but that they have made some sort of plan for when they intend the wedding to take place, and if possible where. I said earlier that this could be done merely by a letter outlining the broad plans and timescale. (I see that you now agree with that.) Not the things on your list, merely an outlining of their intentions.

Surely even you can see that it is not unreasonable to expect a couple who intend to marry within the next 6 months to have some idea of where and when.

However, as, like before, you refuse to accept that your experience is out of date and no longer applicable, there is no point in continuing with this.

Others can decide where they go for advice, the official sources or elsewhere.

Included in 13.9 - Evidence required for fiancé(e) and proposed civil partnership applications:

quote:

Single persons of full age: the Registrar normally accepts the parties’ declaration that they are free to marry/register a civil partnership. ECOs should therefore accept a similar verbal statement by an applicant, together with any supporting correspondence from the person he or she is going to marry/register a civil partnership with, unless there are strong grounds to believe that one of the parties is still married/in a civil partnership or has been married/in a civil partnership previously and is concealing this fact. In such cases you should make whatever enquiries as seem appropriate.

Evidence of marriage/civil partnership arrangements
Of itself, a booking at a Registry Office or church is not proof that a marriage/civil partnership will take place.

The law relating to marriage/civil partnership in England and Wales does not allow for any arrangements to be made with a Registrar until the foreign national has arrived in the UK.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
Ray, I have shown you where the answer to your question is. Not my fault if you are too lazy to look.

I am not lazy Nick. And I am not one to embark on a "fool's errand". If you think I am going to read through all your links just to justify your own argument you are mistaken.

quote:

Indeed, to get the visa in the first place you have to show that you have made plans for when the marriage will take place.

Its still wrong Nick.

quote:

Ray, I have shown you where the answer to your question is

No you have not.

I think all the relevant points have now been made and those researching the topic in the future will have a clearer idea of what the legal requirements are and what evidence is generally needed.

Let's not take this topic into an "I'm right/you're wrong" argument. If you feel you need to continue that argument, please do it via PM.

Quite, Tobias.

The immigration rules are there for all to see.

The DSPs are there for all to see.

The guidance notes are there for all to see.

The VAC checklist is there for all to see.

If people want to ignore all these official sources that is up to them.

I think an important issue is at stake here and it's not about who is right or who is wrong. Its about ensuring important information is correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Tobias:

Let's not take this topic into an "I'm right/you're wrong" argument. If you feel you need to continue that argument, please do it via PM.

Until a fiancé(e) is in the UK it is impossible to give a date as to when the marriage can take place. To assert that you have to give a date at the fiancé(e) visa interview is therefore obviously wrong, as it is impossible to give such a date. I am surprised that any one is failing to see the logic here.

I would request that this thread is not closed until such time that all concerned are satisfied that the information on this site is correct regarding this issue.


From Vinny's link above :-

quote:

Evidence of marriage/civil partnership arrangements
Of itself, a booking at a Registry Office or church is not proof that a marriage/civil partnership will take place.

The law relating to marriage/civil partnership in England and Wales does not allow for any arrangements to be made with a Registrar until the foreign national has arrived in the UK.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
Until a fiancé(e) is in the UK it is impossible to give a date as to when the marriage can take place. To assert that you have to give a date at the fiancé(e) visa interview is therefore obviously wrong, as it is impossible to give such a date.

Ray, please show me the post where I said "that you have to give a date at the fiancé(e) visa interview" or indeed at any other stage of the application.

You can't, because I never said that you did.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
Ray, please show me the post where I said "that you have to give a date at the fiancé(e) visa interview" or indeed at any other stage of the application.

You can't, because I never said that you did.

quote:

Indeed, to get the visa in the first place you have to show that you have made plans for when the marriage will take place.

Are you saying now that you do not get a visa at a visa interview?

Showing that you have made plans for when the marriage will take place is not the same as giving an exact date.

I said as much in my post at 10:03

quote:

You cannot show a definite confirmed booking, correct.

However, you can, and should, show that you have made some sort of plans for when you intend to marry. As the links previously provided confirm.

For example;
We intend to book our wedding at X registry office within y weeks of arrival in the UK.

If you had read that post properly the farce of this silly argument would never have happened.