Thaiboi is applying for jobs and we have an application form that asks for passport number, visa number and a copy of the visa! Is this usual at the application stage? I would have thought this information would only be requested once a decision to hire the applicant had been made.

Should I be concerned about providing a copy of Thaiboi's visa with his application, or is this perfectly normal?

These days employers can be subject to large fines if they employ an immigrant who cannot legally work, even if they do so unwittingly. I'm therefore not at all surprised by this. They wouldn't want to wait until the interview stage to find out that an applicant was prohibited from employment.

Has he got FLR yet? Remember his CP visa doesn't allow him to work.

Hi Cliff,

As an employer myself I think it is reasonable for an employer to immediately eliminate any applicant who is not clear to work then those that are unsuitable for the job leaving a number to be put forward to the boss for consideration. I think if I spent time interviewing and then hiring prospective staff only then to find out that they are not allowed to work in the UK I would be pretty aggrieved at my PA. Also please bear in mind that employers who employ personnel who cannot legally work in the UK face heavy fines.

A copy of the visa does not contain any information that an employer should not be reasonably entitled to know before employing someone.

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
Has he got FLR yet? Remember his CP visa doesn't allow him to work.

Yes he's got a lovely new residence permit and FLR for two years!

We've just come back from town with some more application forms. Most don't ask too many nosey questions, some do. The national insurance number will need to be left blank, or maybe we could make up a temporary number using the standard format (i.e. TN310389M). Not sure which is best! Either way, Thaiboi has an appointment for his NI number early next month.

Okay, I understand the reasons why employers need all this information. I'm concerned that the visa number may fall into the wrong hands and used to commit fraud/identity theft, etc. You know the way it's so easy to dispose of sensitive information carelessly. That's all.

quote:

Thaiboi is applying for jobs and we have an application form that asks for passport number, visa number and a copy of the visa! Is this usual at the application stage? I would have thought this information would only be requested once a decision to hire the applicant had been made.

Should I be concerned about providing a copy of Thaiboi's visa with his application, or is this perfectly normal?

Cliff I was surprised to see you mention this question on an application form. Indeed I was amazed. I feel that the inclusion of a request for such information could amount to discrimination, and thus the employer is treading on very thin ice.

Have a look at this webpage. It makes quite clear that discrimination happens where :-

quote:

People who are treated differently based upon their sex, race, (colour, nationality, ethnic or national origins), marital status, religion, sexual orientation or because they have undergone gender reassignment (transsexuals). This covers harassment based on any of the above.

Accordingly if the application form asks for confirmation of legal ability to work from only some of the applicants, and not all of then, the employer could be making problems for themselves.

And even then, at the application stage, there could be problems if the gathering of applicants' nationalities might lead to an accusation of discrimination of those grounds.

Once a job is offered it is extremely reasonable for the employer to request confirmation of legal ability to do the job. However such confirmation must be requested from all, and not just those who "don't look British" or the like.

Peterinkendal posted :-

quote:

As an employer myself I think it is reasonable for an employer to immediately eliminate any applicant who is not clear to work

Fine, as long as you do that for all applicants rather than just some of them. Otherwise you are leaving yourself open to an accusation of discrimination. After all, as it confirms on that webpage :-

quote:

Discrimination legislation applies throughout the employment relationship, during the recruitment process, in the workplace and following dismissal.

All reputable employers ask a question about eligibility to work in the UK, usually followed by a warning about what will happen if false information is provided.

The original documents of the successful candidate(s) should be checked and copies retained.

Where I work, that includes the personal ID of everyone, British (alleged) or otherwise - just to make sure.

I would be very hesitent about providing the data that has been asked for, in the same way I wouldn't be happy to see a card go out of sight when paying a bill in a restaurant.

John,
Employers are, I believe, legally bound to ensure that all their employees are entitled to work in the UK, and can be heavily fined if they employ, even unwittingly, someone who is not entitled to work.

Yet you seem to be saying that if they ask applicants to provide proof that they are entitled to work in the UK then the employer is guilty of discrimination and so could, presumably, be sued or prosecuted!

That's crazy!!!!!

Nick, I fear you miss the point! During the appointment process there are great dangers IMHO the employer gathering details such as race or nationality, given it leaves them open to accusations of discrimination.

However once the employer is minded to offer a job to someone then it is extremely reasonable that the prospective employee be asked to prove their eligibility to work. But as made clear by the Home Office booklet regarding checking such ability to work in the UK, those checks need to be done on everyone offered employment, not just those suspected of not being British.

To deal with Cliff's original question, I see no reason why you shouldn't provide what the prospective employer is requesting. The employer is simply following due diligence in asking for this. Should employment be offered, the employer will need to see the original documents.

What John is saying is quite true, however, in Cliff's case there is nothing suggesting that the employer treats 'non-British' applicants differently to British applicants, as the application form asks for these details and presumably the same application is given to everyone.

Personally I think it a pragmatic way of dealing with the process - if an applicant clearly doesn't satisfy the legal requirements to work in the UK, that applicant can be immediately (and lawfully) ruled-out/rejected before wasting time interviewing an individual who could not work for the employer legally. The form could, for example, ask for that information for "non-British" applicants and would not be considered to be racially motivated. Why? Because a British national has an automatic right to work in the UK - non-British nationals do not and so must prove their entitlement by producing a relevant passport and (where necessary) and appropriate visa.

For an individual to make a successful application to an Employment Tribunal, the onus is on the individual to prove they did not get the employment on the grounds of race and race alone and for no other reason.

It might be useful if readers of this thread have a look at this IND webpage, which deals with the matter much clearer than I have put it.

My original question had nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with someone copying or cloning Thaiboi's visa. That's it - plain and simple!

Speaking of discrimination, a question on most of the application forms asks for next of kin details, i.e. name of next of kin and relationship. This question is surely discriminatory because if the words "Civil Partner" are used, it would effectively be a declaration of the applicant's sexual orientation. Any thoughts?

quote:

This question is surely discriminatory because if the words "Civil Partner" are used, it would effectively be a declaration of the applicant's sexual orientation. Any thoughts?

Cliff, a bit oversensitive I think. If wife or husband is used it's also a declaration of the applicants sexual orientation.

Yes, but I think you know where I'm coming from. Homophobia is more widespread than hetrophobia. In fact, hetrophobia isn't even a word, let alone an issue.

quote:

My original question had nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with someone copying or cloning Thaiboi's visa. That's it - plain and simple!

True Cliff, but that application form, does it make any attempt to gather any information from those who might be British? Or does it just gather information from those who admit they are not British?

It might be the case that there is discrimination embedded in the application form without you realising it, or I accept, without you personally being worried by that aspect.

And as regards discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, that of course is also actionable if it can be proved.

Going off the original question i think guys

On a similar matter, i have started to apply for work back here in the uk after pretty much spending the past 3 years in Thailand, on the question of most recent employer i had to put "various" but detailed the posts as they were all the same, however after an interview yesterday with a very well known recod company/airline i was asked to provide my passport for proof of not working in the uk?

Why? I am a British National applying for a middle management job, relevant experience and qualifications, documents and references to back up my claims, but they were more concerned with seeing my passport!! I will show it if this is going to land me the job, along with 8 video tapes, around 2,000 photos, airline ticket stubbs, receipts from restaurants in Bangkok and anything else i can dig up, as personally i feel showing any of it is irrelivent to the post applied for!!

your damned if you do and damned if you dont

quote:

Why? I am a British National

Mark, the point is this. Until you prove it you are merely claiming to be British. It is extremely important that employers check the ability of a successful applicant to work in the UK, and indeed to do such checks on everyone who is successful, and not just on those who "don't look British".

quote:

however after an interview yesterday with a very well known recod company/airline i was asked to provide my passport for proof of not working in the uk?

Why?

Anyone working in the UK with an appalling set of references for theft etc etc could easily say they have been working abroad where references cannot be checked. I imagine the employer is just wanting to check that you are not such a person and indeed have been working in LOS.

Peter

Indeed. You'd be surprised how many I come across who have been "abroad" for lenthy periods,yet later turns out to be HMP Leicester or Lincoln They don't have much of a tan either!

quote:

Originally posted by John:
It might be the case that there is discrimination embedded in the application form without you realising it, or I accept, without you personally being worried by that aspect.

John, you raise an interesting point. One of the application forms is for Wagamama restaurant. Here's a quote from their application form:

quote:

wagamama will not accept or ignore unfair decisions, practices or requirements that qualify or exclude an individual from meeting essential employment requirements. they include, but are not limited to, a person's age, race, colour, nationality, ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, family status, religion or belief, disability, differing working patterns, political/religious affiliation or ex-offender status

Why does Wagamama ask if applicants are "single / living with partner / married"? Is it any of their business? No! Is it relevant to the job? I rather doubt it! Could the answer be used to discriminate against the applicant? Absolutely! So why ask it?

To see the Wagamama application form click here

McDonald's ask for next of kin details and even have a question about ethnic origin for its "diversity policy". Would it be acceptable to ask sexual orientation for the same "diversity policy"? Or marital status? Or religious beliefs? Absolutely not! So why ask ethnic origin?

For McDonald's application form click here

quote:

Why does Wagamama ask if applicants are "single / living with partner / married"? Is it any of their business? No! Is it relevant to the job? I rather doubt it! Could the answer be used to discriminate against the applicant? Absolutely! So why ask it?

Mmmm. I expect they also ask for your first name. This is not relevant to the job and maybe the interviewer doesn't like the name John etc etc so could discriminate. Silly? yes I know but so is the quoted text. An interviewer would like to know about the person being interviewed - thats all.

Peter

Cliff, as regards the McDonalds form, on the issue of eligibility to work in the UK, I think they have dealt with that correctly. That is, the application form does not gather such information, but the declaration includes :-

quote:

I understand that before any offer of employment is made, I must provide the company with confirmation of my eligibility to work in the UK.

-: which is fine, and how it shold be done.

The Wagamama form is unbelieveable. OK it asks for details from everyone, but totally fails to cope with the situation of a British Citizen not having a passport!

And why does the McDonalds application form ask for Next of Kin details? And how is someone in a Civil Partnership going to dealing with the Marital Status question?

With regard to Cliff's original point, unless you completely trust the employer asking for the data before knowing if your partner has the job (and I wouldn't, no matter how respectable and established they may seem), I reiterate:

quote:

I would be very hesitent about providing the data that has been asked for, in the same way I wouldn't be happy to see a card go out of sight when paying a bill in a restaurant.

Theres a lot of crooks out there, be wise and be safe.

quote:

Originally posted by John:
And why does the McDonalds application form ask for Next of Kin details? And how is someone in a Civil Partnership going to dealing with the Marital Status question?

Perhaps many McDonald's interviewees collapse and die mid-interview upon learning that they'll be force-fed McDonald's food while working there. Hence the need for next of kin details for the interview!

And as for your second question, I have no idea...Employers really need to redesign their questions to cater for all eventualities. We had the same issue with the Embassy of Ireland's visa application form:

Question 8: Personal status: Single / Married / Widowed / Divorced / Separated

Answer: (left blank)

Question 9: Will you be accompanied by your spouse and/or members of your family to Ireland YES/NO Will they join you later? YES/NO Please give relevant name(s), place(s) and date(s) of birth, nationality and relationship to you:

Answer: YES, I will be accompanied by my civil partner Cliff Handsoman DOB 0x/0x/xx (Irish).

quote:

Originally posted by caller:
I would be very hesitent about providing the data that has been asked for, in the same way I wouldn't be happy to see a card go out of sight when paying a bill in a restaurant...

Theres a lot of crooks out there, be wise and be safe.

Well said, Caller. I am inclined to complete the visa information section and next of kin details thus:

"This information will be provided once a decision to hire me has been made."

Easy!