quote:

Originally posted by duster:
The 'story' masquerades as a 'as it happens' documentary but in fact it's simply a cut and paste and a cheap one at that.

Whether it's a cheap cut and paste job or whether the bus she was filmed on was not really headed in the direction that the film supposed doesn't detract from the fact that this documentary was one of the most fair and balanced one could hope for. From my experience, I have no reason not to believe that there are many "Fon"-girls out there with no ulterior agenda other than finding a Western husband and try to lead a happy life. It's kinda sad that some posters find it necessary to belittle the fine documentary this is - just so they don't have to question their own prejudices.

Duster get a life, it seems to me that you dont know Thailand or the people very well, the documentry was very well balanced to show life as it is for the girls, maybe they watch western tv and would like a part of it and why should they not try to improve thier lives.

quote:

Duster get a life, it seems to me that you don't know Thailand or the people very well, the documentary was very well balanced to show life as it is for the girls, maybe they watch western TV and would like a part of it and why should they not try to improve their lives.

Have to agree with the above.

quote:

Originally posted by db1:
Duster get a life, it seems to me that you dont know Thailand or the people very well, the documentry was very well balanced to show life as it is for the girls, maybe they watch western tv and would like a part of it and why should they not try to improve thier lives.

Well put, db1. I totally agree.

I find it shameful that in a world where insatiably greedy and ambitious people like a Victoria Beckham are held up as rolemodels for a young Western generation (as evidenced by the fact that she is on virtually every cover of every magazine my wife has lying around our home) someone would stoop so low as to point fingers at the relatively humble ambition of a poor Isarn woman to marry a Westerner. The starry-eyed look of Fon in the documentary probably just betrays her ultimate hope of improving not just her own material circumstances but also her son's and (re-)gain the respect of her mother. All very admirable in my opinion.

Duster, the techniques you describe are those used in any documentary. When you see, for example, Micheal Palin disappearing into the distance the shot that reaches the screen is probably at least the third or fourth take! Another example, what I believe is called in the trade 'noddies.' Shots of the interviewer nodding etc. while the interviewee is talking. These are shot after the interview.

I thought this programme represented a fair and balanced picture of two Thai women who have decided that they want a Farang husband, and the two different routes they have chosen in order to find one.

I missed the first ten minutes, so forgive me if my following point was dealt with then; but what I felt was missing was a fuller explanation of why they both wanted a western husband. The impression given by the programme was that it was because of the lifestyles of the 'Mia Farang' they saw around them. That they too wanted a big house and lots of money; but I felt there was more to it than that.

Many Thai women I have spoken to who have, or want, a Farang husband have made that choice because they have in the past suffered from neglect and abuse from Thai partners. They have the belief, rightly or wrongly, that Western men are more gentle and more respectful of their wives than Thai men. Also that Western men are more likely to accept and treat as their own any children the woman may already have than a Thai man would be.

Could this be the case with both Fon and Lek? Both women had been abandoned by the fathers of their children. We were told nothing about Lek's ex except that he refused to help her raise his children We were left in the dark about the father of Fon's child. Except for a throwaway comment about Fon having 'problems' with her step-father, no mention was made of her previous relationships with Thai men at all.

After seeing the start of part one, I didn't bother watching part two. But curiosity got the better of me so I downloaded part two from Tobias's link.

quote:

Originally posted by Tobias:
For those who missed it and want to watch you may find it available on Channel 4 On Demand.

I was very surprised at the quality of the program. I thought that it told an interesting story. I think that it would enlighten most people who had no real knowledge of the life in LOS and why some Thai women are attracted to western men.

quote:

Originally posted by bilbo:

quote:

Duster get a life, it seems to me that you don't know Thailand or the people very well, the documentary was very well balanced to show life as it is for the girls, maybe they watch western TV and would like a part of it and why should they not try to improve their lives.

Have to agree with the above.

You're absolutely right. Owning four houses over there in two provinces and having two businesses at the moment, a fish farm and a coffee shop and first went to Thailand in 1973 lived there for six years. Married to a thai woman. Built two houses over there and rented houses out for seven years. Always good to see that TV is doing something right, it's by nature designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, no one ever lost money underestimating the taste or the intelligence of the public...you prove my point perfectly. No one ever said they shouldn't improve their lives. I said it was scripted and artificial and cheap; they use the same shot to illustrate her going full of trepidation and also returning disappointed. Perhaps all Thai women's expressions look the same to the director or perhaps they couldn't afford two bus tickets. I'm glad it fits your simplistic analysis of plucky thai women struggling to better their lives...that was the intent of the director and that's what they paid for. As for bar girls and retainers to keep them straight, thats pure fiction. As was the notion that 6 to 12 months and the girls will find a husband. Thailand is full of girls on the treadmill of relentless bar work.
Anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't anti bar girl. Your reaction and interpretation of a genuine disagreement about the documentary says more about you than me.
As for the point that all documentaries are made that way...that was my point. TV by it's nature distorts. The observer distorts what is seen so it's inherently false. That doesn't mean it wasn't enjoyable...it was but unlike you I know it's entertainment and you think its reality.

Which aspects of the programme do you find unbelievable Duster? Why do you believe they are not as portrayed?

For those that missed it,it is on 4 on demand or it can be downloaded from this site . You will need a bittorrent program like limewire or this one

Quote
Owning four houses over there in two provinces and having two businesses at the moment, a fish farm and a coffee shop and first went to Thailand in 1973 lived there for six years. Married to a thai woman. Built two houses over there and rented houses out for seven Quote



Duster I see by your profile you are a writer, must be quite famous to earn enough money to own all you say, here is a quote from one of your early posts.

Quote
Posted 21 July 2007 20:48 Hide Post
It's one of the great untapped resources.......Thai women's appetite for hard work and self improvement. I seem to remember a survey some time ago which concluded that of all asian women, Thai women worked hardest at improving their lives and skills.
Quote

Pity they dont have Gremlins for Big Head.

You say I don't know Thailand or Thai people I rebut that. The fact that a simple statement about my thai assets is characterised by you in a particular way says more about you and your insecurities than me. I'm glad you publicized my well known admiration for Thai women. That supports my point that my response to the documentary was not anti thai women or bar girls. Thank you.

Nothing simple about your statement, just about being a big head showing off about your assets

quote:

Originally posted by duster:
Anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't anti bar girl. Your reaction and interpretation of a genuine disagreement about the documentary says more about you than me.

Well, it's certain that you're quite arrogant and view posters here as quite slow or dim-witted: When you write a long post trying to falsify the portrayal ("who still doubts what a pack of lies TV is only has to watch the programme") by pointing to tiny editorial inaccuracies and then subsequently claim that we have over-interpreted your post when its obvious that no one would write a post such as yours without having some deeper sense of disagreement with the bias of the programme - unless of course you're some naive anorak who expects TV to not exercise any kind of editorial direction (as Nick pointed out above). Why not answer Tobias' question and stop taking us for fools?

Bit of a funny one this...I thought the programme was 'pretty tame'from what one was expecting;and all'n'all didn,t reflect too badly on thai women.
However,there has been one or two women(from Issaan)who my wife knows who have been none too pleased with the Tv programme (without knowing their pasts too well they say they weren,t involved in the 'entertainment' industry)
But in their eyes ther 'inference' was there
Personally I was expecting go-gos and ping-pong shows;and 'slavatating' falangs all over the shop.
All in all a pretty interesting show..although i did miss half of it due to watching a previously recorded 'spooks'

quote:

Originally posted by Tobias:
Which aspects of the programme do you find unbelievable Duster? Why do you believe they are not as portrayed?

The program contained no reference to the deceit, on both sides of the equation that happens routinely. Punters lie, bar girls juggle boyfriends. While she's on the internet someone signs in on the bottom corner, happens every few minutes to the bar girls on the internet. Any internet cafe in bangkok near a bar area is full of girls sending the same messages to as many as six guys on messenger. How do I know? Because I lived in bangkok and saw it first hand and because I know a bar girl 'consultant' for several bars. Her english is quite good and she tutors the girls in how to talk to the guys on the internet. When they are sleeping with another guy she just goes to the cafe and talks to their boyfriends saying the camera isn't working or she's in another cafe without a webcam. Then she types the same old drivel. She's not unique it happens all over the town. She's shown me the letters and emails she's sent. Some of the guys were talking to her right up to when their girlfriend went to visit in the UK never knowing they were talking to a stranger half the time.
What a Thai bar girl wants in a man is security. They juggle lots and simply choose the best option. Each one is told the same thing...I love you and I miss you. Anyone who knows real thai women knows it's a long time before they use such terms. Not after a few drunken encounters. They always call the man darling or honey because they have so many on the go, if they type in the wrong box while juggling several punter boyfriends the wrong name is a give away. I know several bar owners and two mamasans. They both say that the girl is in the bar to work and if she is there she will be expected to sleep with the customers. How much repeat busines would a brothel do if after rubbing her rear all over a customer as Fon did she announces that she is on a retainer and doesn't go with clients. Pure fiction.
If it was an accurate portrayal of the bar scene it was not one I recognise. Where were the aged punters, the sick and the diseased, the grossly over weight, the over tatooed and under-educated? Of course they couldn't show the grotesques since the thrust of the program was that the girls were seeking marriage. It wouldn't do to show the reality....that the girls arrive in the Uk to find their choice has no money, no education, no status and no class. The guy Fon is after drinks three bottles of brandy a day...is that noted...no..is the implication of that considered...no. Drunks and lowlifes. That, for a lot of girls is the truth of the bar scene...but if you are making a show about a touching search for happiness...better not show that.
The bus wasn't going to bangkok same shot used twice. The customers in the back of the bar were cut and pasted to fit the circumstance. look at the lighting outside. Shoot early evening before it's busy...say the bar scene is slack same bar but later...make believe it's another day. Sloppy and lazy.
I felt sorry for the few genuine guys writing away in earnest and simply being in a queue and never knowing it. I felt sorry for the girls desperate to escapetheir lot. The girls like Lek aren't expert decievers but after a few months in the bar scene they soon will be....and that's not my predjudice ITS THEIR JOB thats how they make their money...by taking money off sponsors and getting long term support. Every guy knows they are prostitutes but cannot come to terms with that...The girls always try to make as much as they can. The idea that a girl shakes herself all over a customer and then goes home each night is laughable. As is the idea that a mamasan keeps them on the straight and narrow, that's ludicrous...she runs a brothel...do some of the forum posters know what that is? and if anyone believes a girl can survive on 3500 baht a month in bkk is living on fantasy island....the girls don't take taxis they use motorbikes unless they have just had a client...taxis are simply too dear for a girl on 3500. Every punter getting their girl out of a bar wants her in the country not in a bar...but of course that would not suit the story...we have to have one girl in the bar and one in the country to create the tension...will Lek won't she? I have never ever heard of a bar girl paid to stay in the bar amidst all that temptation....but not to sleep with clients. I simply don't believe it, the director invented that and as I said in another post...any girl shaking her rear at a punter all night is going to cause one hell of a row when she doesnt sleep with a customer. The whole thing was set up. Anyone who knows BKK and the bar scene knows that. Its interesting that the reaction to the documentary is so positive on this site. Simple good hearted girls looking for happiness...I wonder if that's because it's what lots of posters want to believe....The reality is far more complex. I enjoyed the documentary, I just know that TV isn't reality its entertainment. Watch, enjoy it but for heavens sake don't believe it.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:

(Child care) Could this be the case with both Fon and Lek? Both women had been abandoned by the fathers of their children. We were told nothing about Lek's ex except that he refused to help her raise his children We were left in the dark about the father of Fon's child. Except for a throwaway comment about Fon having 'problems' with her step-father, no mention was made of her previous relationships with Thai men at all.

I really need to sit down. First I'm up for a post by IanB and now one of Nick's (I'm kidding guys)!

I thought the programme a load of drivel and a pastiche. It was really boring as well.

But Nick picked up on some points that interested me. Firstly Fon the bargirl, who seemingly went there for larfs? Her mums respectable, nice home, has a car. Not exactly the issan poor I know. So she rebelled (her words), against what? It wasn't asked. Why not? I wanted to know.

She alluded to an issue with her step-dad as Nick mentions above and said her kid wouldn't have that. Why wasn't that picked up on? That may have been a more interesting theme and possibly relevant to the subject matter?

And the fight scene - ah, how TV loves those. What a load of drivel. I've arranged a "leave the camera alone" scene myself and I do not believe that wasn't staged. It must have been a quiet night in the bar!

Also, as stated, no background info supplied about either lady, surely thats relevant in such a programme? And I personally would find it hard to believe they were not paid, and the village headman, and tha man...whatever. How, if that is the case, did it affect the programme? I wondered if the bar was so empty because filming was taking place? Now, I don't frequent these places (thanfully), but if I did, I can't imagine strolling in for a beer with a full camera crew present?

Anyway, the bottom line is that its hardly attracted much attention, apart from places like here.

quote:

Originally posted by Henson:

quote:

Originally posted by duster:
Anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't anti bar girl. Your reaction and interpretation of a genuine disagreement about the documentary says more about you than me.

Well, it's certain that you're quite arrogant and view posters here as quite slow or dim-witted: When you write a long post trying to falsify the portrayal ("who still doubts what a pack of lies TV is only has to watch the programme") by pointing to tiny editorial inaccuracies and then subsequently claim that we have over-interpreted your post when its obvious that no one would write a post such as yours without having some deeper sense of disagreement with the bias of the programme - unless of course you're some naive anorak who expects TV to not exercise any kind of editorial direction (as Nick pointed out above). Why not answer Tobias' question and stop taking us for fools?

Great pleasure in answering the post by Tobias, he simply asks a question rather than reacting....now why is that? My guesses
a. educated and open minded
b. doesn't fit the stereotypical Mr Thai Wife
c. Isn't in thrall to TV and intelligent enough to know
the nature of the medium; "The medium is the message" We
know it, we trust it, we let it in our home and we
believe it.

Sad that we let it form our opinions rather
than trust the evidence of our ears and eyes. I go to
bars a lot in thailand, I drink fruit juice, so it's
not for the beer but I like
to play pool and it gives me something to do while my
wife is getting the car cleaned or getting her hair
done etc etc. I talk to the girls a lot, as a friend,
never a punter. I leave when the punters start
arriving. I don't need the half truths of a documentary
to tell me about the girls. I don't base my knowledge
on the occasional holiday either.
I used to own a
massage business in Hua Hin, rented the premises out, did not run the business and I saw girls like Lek
come and go. I sat at an engagement party where a Dane got engaged to a thai woman who used to work in the business. During his speech on stage about his love for Thailand and his soon to be wife she asked me if I thought her husband to be would be angry if he found out about her Thai boyfriend or whether she should just carry on lying. Did europeans take marriage seriously?
The girls are not naive, romantic innocents, the punters soon knock that out of them.

quote:

Originally posted by caller:

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:

(Child care) Could this be the case with both Fon and Lek? Both women had been abandoned by the fathers of their children. We were told nothing about Lek's ex except that he refused to help her raise his children We were left in the dark about the father of Fon's child. Except for a throwaway comment about Fon having 'problems' with her step-father, no mention was made of her previous relationships with Thai men at all.

I really need to sit down. First I'm up for a post by IanB and now one of Nick's (I'm kidding guys)!

I thought the programme a load of drivel and a pastiche. It was really boring as well.

But Nick picked up on some points that interested me. Firstly Fon the bargirl, who seemingly went there for larfs? Her mums respectable, nice home, has a car. Not exactly the issan poor I know. So she rebelled (her words), against what? It wasn't asked. Why not? I wanted to know.

She alluded to an issue with her step-dad as Nick mentions above and said her kid wouldn't have that. Why wasn't that picked up on? That may have been a more interesting theme and possibly relevant to the subject matter?

And the fight scene - ah, how TV loves those. What a load of drivel. I've arranged a "leave the camera alone" scene myself and I do not believe that wasn't staged. It must have been a quiet night in the bar!

Also, as stated, no background info supplied about either lady, surely thats relevant in such a programme? And I personally would find it hard to believe they were not paid, and the village headman, and tha man...whatever. How, if that is the case, did it affect the programme? I wondered if the bar was so empty because filming was taking place? Now, I don't frequent these places (thanfully), but if I did, I can't imagine strolling in for a beer with a full camera crew present?

Anyway, the bottom line is that its hardly attracted much attention, apart from places like here.

I agree with every word caller, intelligent and perceptive analysis by you, hope you get less vitriol for me when saying that the earth failed to move for you...

Duster,

Thanks for clarifying the real reason why you disagreed with the programme. You raise many valid points and I'm not going to try and tackle them each individually as it has been done a hundred times before. I guess we can both agree that all girls and guys are different and that people are shaped by their environment in varying degrees.
Your experience tells you that probabilities are that these two girls (especially Fon) are inventions and that such girls are very hard to find in a Bangkok bar. I don't share that belief, and I and other posters here are justified in having such views as we probably have our own experiences to back these up as you have yours.
Relationships are a two way street - it's fairly clear that a girl like Fon let down once, twice or multiple times by this or that Farang will eventually become more and more "streetwise" to the ways of her punters. She will no longer cry in desperation if her beau no longer calls her, but just try and call the next best alternative. Suspicions will arise on both sides. If Fon no longer hears from a future boyfriend she might throw herself at the nearest client. Bad experiences and mercenary environments can corrupt many girls.
However, the usual drivel - about posters here being naive and just wishing that what we saw in the film was the real state of affairs instead of the "fiction" you claim it is - I dont accept. This documentary humanised girls that many internet forums and popular tabloids/TV programmes often try to stereotype and dramatise in a way that isn't fair. So that's why I commend the director despite your misgivings.

Goodness, Duster must have been typing away as I wrote my tiny piece? Just read it. Interesting reading, no?