It appears that there will be no accountability for the 2500+ deaths during Thaksin's anti-drugs crusade after all

News report

Rich

Mooks brother in laws, brother was killed in this so called "crackdown", and he was no drug dealer. He had a thriving motorcycle repair business and in very similar circumstances to the report just refused to pay "protection money". He was at his mums having a shower when the police came to the house and shot him in the head. He was 31 years old and left 1 son. His family complained and started to ask questions, but were warned that they would meet the same fate if they continued with their claims. When he was shot he had a bag of "yabba" placed on his body. What was truly amazing was that this was done in daylight with lots of villagers watching in complete amazement. After the murder the policeman calmly got the yabba and camera from his own police car and took his pictures for his evidence. I knew this guy quite well and from everyone that i spoke to said he never dealt drugs and in there own words said: it was because "he not pay police mafia".

That's a very sad story Neil but with respect there were bad police before and there will always be. So the bad ones always did this kind of thing.

I am not going to stick up for extra judicial killings. All I know is what I witnessed in the area of Thailand I was living in at the time of the campaign against drugs. Prior to the campaign our friend's aunt was shot dead by drug dealers in broad daylight outside her house - her brother a senior policeman had convicted one of their mates and this was their retaliation.

Those people shot in my locality were known drugs dealers. Small time dealers/users were just warned to stop and in the face of what they knew would be the consequences, did so. Some were sent to rehab. The drug supply locally dried up overnight. My stepson and daughter who had had their dinner money stolen in lieu of buying yabba nearly every day by the drugs gangs and my stepson had been beaten up for refusing to buy - a prerrable fate to one of his schoolmates who was murdered by the dealers as a warning. So they now felt a lot safer.

So its not all black and white and it never ceases to amaze me that reporting of the drugs situation, not to mention other crime always focusses on the poor criminals and never their victims.

Once again I am sorry for your brother in law's brother, as well as my friend's aunt, equally victims of evil people.

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Parry:
... Those people shot in my locality were known drugs dealers...

Surely that doesn't mean it was right to shoot and kill them? Two wrongs don't make a right.

How can you expect a population to have respect for law and order if the law enforcers and government don't respect it?

I know you are right Tobias but the reality is in the UK how many of us are sick to death of the lack of respect for others belongings and lawlessness. TBH I wish the police would shoot dead the son of a bitch that keyed my car last month. Why should I have to pay for a yobs enjoyment.

Smackheads in the UK spoil what would be by far the best country in the world. It is abhorrent that those entrusted to uphold the law should abuse it but the drug dealers won't get any sympathy from any corner. They are scum and a shoot to kill policy for such will eradicate the menace despite any PC Brigade's attempts to dissuade the fact.

I have had to send 17,000 Baht to my mom-in-law today to pay for iron bars for the windows because of a burgalar last night.... 8000 miles away and still it costs me money though I also am very sorry to hear of the above mentioned casualties and find it appalling

quote:

Originally posted by slik:
... I also am very sorry to hear of the above mentioned casualties and find it appalling

That is one of the consequence when law enforcement personnel become judge, jury and executioner.

There should be no place in any society for such type of summary "justice".

quote:

Originally posted by Tobias:
That is one of the consequence when law enforcement personnel become judge, jury and executioner.

Can't argue with that, but it's a worry for me that in the UK, many are now prosecutor and judge (a jury isn't needed) in dispensing 'alternatives to a prosecution' which are pretty arbitary and skew the figures for the numbers of offences committed and don't count should the next time, or the time after, the offender actually gets invited to an actual court of law and actually bothers to turn up!

The in word is "feral hoods" I believe
colin 244

quote:

Surely that doesn't mean it was right to shoot and kill them? Two wrongs don't make a right.

How can you expect a population to have respect for law and order if the law enforcers and government don't respect it?

Tobias, in response here are 2 quotes from my post that you do not seem to have taken account of :-

quote:

I am not going to stick up for extra judicial killings

quote:

Once again I am sorry for your brother in law's brother, as well as my friend's aunt, equally victims of evil people.

Personally I think it is right to shoot and kill drug dealers...but it should be done through the courts. I am well aware and agree with your point that taking the law into their own hands they tread on dangerous ground. All I am saying is that despite that, the effect of the actions in the locality I call my second home, was positive, and the locals there were delighted. I have given up trying to judge Thais by the same standards I would judge Westerners (and I am not being patronising here) because it just does not make sense to do so.

Silk, I agree with you on what you say. We all get very frustrated by the refusal of the government to deal effectively with this issue.

quote:

but it should be done through the courts.

Armed barristers roaming the Inns of Court,Uzis concealed under their robes? Glock-toting solicitors doing a bit of conveyancing as a side-line?

Would you have shot the following person,she is a drug dealer by your definition?
16 year old girl,convicted of possession with intent to supply (Heroin). No previous convictions. Had a bag of the drugs in her handbag and was told to put it there by her 23 year old boyfriend,when the car was pulled over by police. No "drug list" on her mobile phone,no financial gains and still at school. Changed her initial statement to police and gave statement implicating her boyfriend in like offences,suffering a vicious assault by boyfriend's cohorts as a result.

That is not a sensible argument Roly - she is a victim not a perpetrator.

We are proposing how we feel not how it should be. Tony Martin shot dead one and wounded another burglar as they ran away from his home. Who cares? Jailing him was an insult to society.

We need more like Judge John Deed
(get in there my son)

quote:

Originally posted by rolyshark:

quote:

but it should be done through the courts.

Armed barristers roaming the Inns of Court,Uzis concealed under their robes? Glock-toting solicitors doing a bit of conveyancing as a side-line?

Would you have shot the following person,she is a drug dealer by your definition?
16 year old girl,convicted of possession with intent to supply (Heroin). No previous convictions. Had a bag of the drugs in her handbag and was told to put it there by her 23 year old boyfriend,when the car was pulled over by police. No "drug list" on her mobile phone,no financial gains and still at school. Changed her initial statement to police and gave statement implicating her boyfriend in like offences,suffering a vicious assault by boyfriend's cohorts as a result.

More questions than answers in this scenario! I guess a solution would be to shoot the boyfriend and his cohorts? A double whammy? However, in reality it's just a roller-coaster of a ride and nothing changes - do the offence, do the little time and start all over again, sadly.

And Jacqui(?) Smith tells us crime is down, well, recorded crime, which should be part of the debate - what to record? The Police are a minority in the field of law enforcement in this day and age, but unless something goes through the courts, its not always centrally recorded as a crime.

quote:

That is not a sensible argument Roly - she is a victim not a perpetrator.

Precisely.
Nevertheless she is a drug dealer (possession with intent to supply heroin) and Simon Parry would have her shot...

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Parry:
... Tobias, in response here are 2 quotes from my post that you do not seem to have taken account of :-

quote:

I am not going to stick up for extra judicial killings

quote:

Once again I am sorry for your brother in law's brother, as well as my friend's aunt, equally victims of evil people.

Personally I think it is right to shoot and kill drug dealers...but it should be done through the courts. ...

Didn't miss them Simon, I thought my response took that as read and they still do not change my mind on the subject.

Judicial killings would tend to mean a 'death sentence' legally handed down by a judge after a conviction. The police (or other law enforcement agencies) are not judicial offices, but law enforcement entirely separate from the judiciary.

What appears to have happened with these so-called 'drug-dealers' is that many have been murdered (or unlawfully killed) by the police and other law enforcement personnel. The individuals did not have the opportunity to offer a defence to the accusations. Had they enjoyed such an opportunity Neil & Mook's relative may well still be alive today and his children might still have a father.

I have strong reservations about the death sentence in any jurisdiction even when handed down lawfully, okay an-eye-for-an-eye and all that. Not convinced it is entirely appropriate.

I'm sure the families of innocent bystanders who become victims of shootings/violence would have little sympathy for the drug dealers.
I dont agree with the death penalty but cant deny that something has to be done to increase the respect for the law.
I've been reading an excellent book on the transportation of convicts to Australia and even the possibility of that punishment didnt seem to deter what would now be seen as very petty crimes - 7 yrs for stealing a chicken or a cake !
In fact alot of the transportations were the result of commuted death sentences leading to overflowing prisons - so it would seem that severe punishments dont stop the crimes being committed in the first place.

Rob

[MODERATOR NOTE: Some content has been edited by moderator (Rolyshark) and the author notified by PM]

To those of you that appear to be supporting the killing of alleged drug dealers by the police in Thailand - have a word with your wife. Ask her who the biggest drug dealers are.

I can't speak for all of Thailand but certainly in the Yasothon area - most drug dealing is controlled by the police.

I keep having to remind my self why it is that I want to live in a country that is so corrupt and where the keepers of the law are also probably the biggest breakers of it. That ranges from police motorcyclists riding the wrong way up a road to downright murder. Law breaking by the authorities happens in all countries but in Thailand the scale of it seems massive.

Original quote from Roly

quote:

Would you have shot the following person,she is a drug dealer by your definition?
16 year old girl,convicted of possession with intent to supply (Heroin). No previous convictions. Had a bag of the drugs in her handbag and was told to put it there by her 23 year old boyfriend,when the car was pulled over by police. No "drug list" on her mobile phone,no financial gains and still at school. Changed her initial statement to police and gave statement implicating her boyfriend in like offences,suffering a vicious assault by boyfriend's cohorts as a result.

No, of course not. I would expect in her case that any sensible jury to see that she is innocent. I had not qualified my original comment but now do so by stating the bleeding obvious.

quote:

Nevertheless she is a drug dealer (possession with intent to supply heroin) and Simon Parry would have her shot...

You can be as smart as you like but please do not put words in my mouth.

For the record I find extra judicial killings by the police authorities abhorrent. I do however agree with the death penalty in extreme cases for the most evil and persistent offenders. Thats something we just have to agree to disagree on.

Sadly the real bad guys be they police controlling drugs or anyone else for that matter consistently peddling this foul stuff really just get away with it in most cases. Sadly I am not sure that anyone has the answer.

quote:

No, of course not. I would expect in her case that any sensible jury to see that she is innocent.

She pleaded guilty,as there was no possible defence to the charge. However,rather than being shot,she received a probation order,the court acknowledging she was a "mere pawn". Ex boyfriend got 8 years.

However,I am not putting words in your mouth. You clearly stated,

"Personally I think it is right to shoot and kill drug dealers...but it should be done through the courts."

What I was demonstrating is that you were perhaps brushing all drug dealers with the same tar. The judiciary and the rule of law are separate from the executive for just these reasons and reinforces the points made by Tobias.

Roly, for the record and for absolute clarity, no I was not brushing all drug dealers with the same tar.

If you have an image of me as someone who wants everyone shot who steps out of line then I can only state this is definately not the case. I am delighted the poor girl in your example was dealt with fairly.

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Parry:
Roly, for the record and for absolute clarity, no I was not brushing all drug dealers with the same tar. ...

Unlike (it appears) the "law enforcers" of Thailand ... ... which is exactly the point of Roly's (and my) posts on this subject!

It appears even innocent bystanders were shot for no legitimate or any legally or morally justifiable reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Flip:
To those of you that appear to be supporting the killing of alleged drug dealers by the police in Thailand....

I've read and reread the posts in this thread, and cannot see where anyone said that. Can you point it out to me, please?

quote:

Originally posted by Tobias:
It appears even innocent bystanders were shot for no legitimate or any legally or morally justifiable reason.

By corrupt police using the anti drug campaign as an excuse for their actions. Whether one blames Taksin and his government depends, I suppose, on one's politics.

I have personal reasons for loathing drugs and drug dealers but on the whole am against the death penalty. I believe, though, that life imprisonment, and I mean life not 15 to 20 years less remission, should be mandatory for persistent offenders and those dealing in large amounts.

Obviously the girl whose case was described by Roly, based on what he has told us, is more a victim than a criminal and does not deserve a prison sentence. But, from what we've been told, her 'boyfriend' and his cohorts do deserve to spend the rest of their lives locked away.

quote:

I believe, though, that life imprisonment, and I mean life not 15 to 20 years less remission, should be mandatory for persistent offenders and those dealing in large amounts.

Thats okay in theory but subsequent governments and the namby pamby brigade of bleeding hearts can and do change these life sentences to be a lot less plus having to use money to keep these scrotes behind bars annoys me). On the other hand the death penalty is a bit final if as in a few cases a mistake is made(I am referring to the UK here not Thailand).

It always astounds me that the various tabloids get exclusives from drug dealers operating on the various estates where they seem to have evaded the local police and yet there is cctv footage of the deals etc. Maybe the Thai approach at that level would be effective if actually restricted to those people as opposed to being used to eliminate political opposition and settle old scores.

I remember the SAS taking out suspected IRA terrorists in Gibraltar and the subsequent uproar , sometimes direct action is justified.

ash