For those interested, The Nation newspaper website has an unofficial votes count page on the website. The link is :-

http://203.150.244.10/reports/eng/index.php

Officical results are expected by midnight in Thailand

Hope this is of some interest.

Season's greetings to all

More news here:

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-31096120071223

It's the top story on CNN. They've been hinting that the new PM may be in a position to issue a pardon to Thaksin!

Click here for video

You can't issue a pardon to someone who has not been convicted.

But you can give them an amnesty...


Nick

Actually, in certain circumstances and in certain jurisdictions a pardon can be given without a conviction. That is a pardon is given to let an offence pass without punishment.

A pardon is, in effect, a 'forgiveness' of a crime and may be given at any time after the commission of the crime even before, during or after legal proceedings are taken.

What is significant is the fact that a pardon, by definition, can only be given if there is an admission or acknowledgement to the crime in the first instance.

Interesting, but my point was that there seemed to be an assumption of guilt without trial, Cliff. In this country we should proud of the fact that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Parry:
In this country we should proud of the fact that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

Never had dealings with the revenue Simon?

Hey Jack that's a point ! But no I am PAYE so have never had the opportunity to try to avoid them stealing from me

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Parry:
Hey Jack that's a point ! But no I am PAYE so have never had the opportunity to try to avoid them stealing from me

Then if I was you, I'd fill in a tax return anyway! I'm PAYE and found I had been overpaying and got a refund!

And no, I never got to the bottom of it!!

But back to topic I guess?

I second that caller likewise I got nearly 2 grand back after filling in my tax return even though I was PAYE

Back to the original subject it is far from clear that the PPP will form a goverment yet as 3 PPP candidates have already been yellow carded allowing them and the party to participate in a bye election but the EC will not announce the red cards until I believe the 15th of January and a red car means the candidate and party are banned from contesting the bye election. if PPP gets 15-20 red cards and loses a few bye elections and the smaller parties come into play and it is different story

quote:

Originally posted by Siam Steve:
Back to the original subject it is far from clear that the PPP will form a goverment yet as 3 PPP candidates have already been yellow carded allowing them and the party to participate in a bye election but the EC will not announce the red cards until I believe the 15th of January and a red car means the candidate and party are banned from contesting the bye election. if PPP gets 15-20 red cards and loses a few bye elections and the smaller parties come into play and it is different story

Unless it's a Wednesday, when the person with the largest tank will be allowed to change the rules, especially if he has a 'wings' badge despite the fact that he has probably never jumped off anything higher than a bar stool, or a Mia Noi when interrupted.


Breaking News .... didit didit didit......

When it comes to politics and the word democracy, this country is a joke.... seriously.

If I didn't live here I'd be laughing my socks off right now, most of the rest of the world will be, as I do live here, it's only worth a little chuckle and a shake of the head.

Democracy was certainly served as I observed convoys of Thai Rak Thai, oops People Power Party voters clogging the road on the way to polling. No doubt the fact that fallang orientated businesses could not serve me ( a beer ) helped turnout. Mbai pen rai. Interestingly my GF and her family quite like elections the familly being a few thousand Baht better off every time one is held.

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by Thaddeus:
When it comes to politics and the word democracy, this country is a joke.... seriously.

Two, hopefully, unbiased views*. The first published before the results were known, the second after.

Thailand lurches back to democracy

A Thai lesson in democracy

Hope for the future? Maybe, it depends on whether the military and the people behind them accept the result. Of course, the problem with democracy is that people don't always vote the way the elite would wish them to.

*Edit. In case there is any doubt, I am not implying anything untoward about Thadd's views.

quote:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
*Edit. In case there is any doubt, I am not implying anything untoward about Thadd's views.

I should bloody well hope not

quote:

Of course, the problem with democracy is that people don't always vote the way the elite would wish them to.

If by the elite you mean multi billionaires who control the media, I think the Thai people did vote the way the elite wanted!

Ian

quote:

Of course, the problem with democracy is that people don't always vote the way the elite would wish them to.

That may be the case in a normal democracy, but Thailand falls short of 'normal'. Many of the elite you speak about are those making sure the votes go precisely where they want them to. 'People Power Party' - what a misnomer! 'Rich Fat Cats Milking The Country Dry Party' has a much truer ring to it. Most of the educated working and middle class see right through their façade but don't number enough to make a difference at the polls. With well over 70% of the population living in, or coming from, rural areas with minimal education and low income, 'democracy' comes cheap to those wealthy and corrupt enough to buy it.

quote:

Interestingly my GF and her family quite like elections the familly being a few thousand Baht better off every time one is held.

Enough said. Democracy?

Meanwhile, cries of "cheat" continue ringing out from all sides ...

PPP suggests Bangkok poll corruption

EC sets its eyes on five more PPP candidates

Ian, by 'elite' I mean the the educated working and middle class referred to by Paul.

Paul, the first impression upon reading your post is that it is only this educated working and middle class who should be allowed to vote as the well over 70% of the population living in, or coming from, rural areas with minimal education and low income are either too stupid or too corrupt to vote for the 'right' party'!
Surely this cannot be your meaning?

By facade, do you mean that the PPP supports Taksin (his 'puppets' as you called them before)? Everyone knows this, I thought.

The media? Well the English language media is certainly anti Taksin, and most expats in Thailand get their information from the English language media. But I am 6000 miles away, and can only base my comments on what I am told by Thais I know here, the majority of whom are pro Taksin. I guess that means they all must only have had the minimal education that Paul speaks of.

Meanwhile the accusations of corruption, as Paul points out, come flying from all sides. Anyone who believes that only the PPP is guilty of this is either deliberately ignoring the obvious or completely naive.

Let's hope that, whatever the outcome, the situation does not deteriorate into the chaos and violence currently occurring in Pakistan.

quote:

Ian, by 'elite' I mean the the educated working and middle class referred to by Paul.

I think using 'elite' to describe those people is very misleading. Little wonder both Ian and I were confused about who you were talking about.

quote:

Paul, the first impression upon reading your post is that it is only this educated working and middle class who should be allowed to vote as the well over 70% of the population living in, or coming from, rural areas with minimal education and low income are either too stupid or too corrupt to vote for the 'right' party'!
Surely this cannot be your meaning?

Did I say that? No. My point was about the wholesale buying of votes in the north and north east of Thailand. Thaksin wasn't daft. Why pay out millions of dollars to a few thousand wealthy Thais when you can buy the loyalty of millions for a few baht each, then steal billions from the purse but still be adored by the masses.

quote:

By facade, do you mean that the PPP supports Taksin (his 'puppets' as you called them before)?

Once again, no. The façade is the name of the party and what they claim to stand for. You have to give them their due, they've fooled a lot of people.

quote:

But I am 6000 miles away, and can only base my comments on what I am told by Thais I know here, the majority of whom are pro Taksin. I guess that means they all must only have had the minimal education that Paul speaks of.

Who said all? Not me. Incidentally, most of the Thais I met in the UK who were married to farangs did have a minimal education and were from rural areas. That's not a criticism, just a fact. Yes, most of them support Thaksin.

Regarding corruption: So far the PPP seem to be throwing unsupported accusations in the direction of other parties but this may be little more than a smokescreen to distract from more solid allegations against them which are already being investigated by the independent Election Commission.

Regardless of who's in charge, Thai politics has changed little over the last three decades: It's all one hell of a mess.

quote:

Originally posted by maokaang:

quote:

Ian, by 'elite' I mean the the educated working and middle class referred to by Paul.

I think using 'elite' to describe those people is very misleading. Little wonder both Ian and I were confused about who you were talking about

Not worded very well, I admit. The BBC described them better here.

quote:

key members of the traditional elite, top bureaucrats and business figures linked to the monarchy, and some sympathy from a growing anti-Thaksin protest movement incorporating middle-class Thais and NGO activists.

quote:

Originally posted by maokaang:
The façade is the name of the party and what they claim to stand for. You have to give them their due, they've fooled a lot of people.

Ah, I see. Just like the Labour Party in the UK, then.

quote:

Originally posted by maokaang:
My point was about the wholesale buying of votes in the north and north east of Thailand. Thaksin wasn't daft. Why pay out millions of dollars to a few thousand wealthy Thais when you can buy the loyalty of millions for a few baht each, then steal billions from the purse but still be adored by the masses.

Paul, you are using the old political trick of presenting un proven accusations as fact. Again from that BBC article.

quote:

The coup leaders needed to justify their intervention by proving their charges of massive corruption and abuses of power under Mr Thaksin.

That has not happened.

The various legal cases brought against the former prime minister are of a fairly technical nature, and have made little progress in the courts.

There is a suspicion that officials are unwilling to push the cases against him until they are sure he will not be making a comeback.

Or it may be that so many officials were compromised by their dealings with Mr Thaksin that they dare not risk going after him.

The result, though, is that there has so far been no smoking gun.

The frequently-made claims that his was the most corrupt administration in Thai history now look hollow.

quote:

Originally posted by maokaang:
Regarding corruption: So far the PPP seem to be throwing unsupported accusations in the direction of other parties but this may be little more than a smokescreen to distract from more solid allegations against them already being investigated by the independent Election Commission.

Another old political trick; "my accusations are solid, whilst yours are an unsupported smokescreen."

Excuse my ignorance, but how independent is the Election Commission? Who appointed them?

Interesting aspect to this thread. Just because people haven't had much of an education doesn't mean they are incapable of weighing up who to support, though.

Like most people everywhere, I guess the consideration is who will benefit me and mine best?

In which case, the "establishment" in Thailand hasn't got much of a record in the poorer areas, has it? So it shouldn't be a great surprise that anyone saying they will look after their needs will get their vote.

If from a "poorer" region, you regard it as normal that just about everyone in the "establishment" is always looking after their personal needs in any case, why should you worry if someone else comes along to take their slice of the pie instead of the usual suspects?

I can't see why anyone would think those in the poorer regions would vote for anyone else? Toxin did deliver some of his promises and however he got in before, by and large, he was their choice. They didn't remove him and now they have voted his associates in again.

For how long for is another matter.