quote:

Interesting aspect to this thread. Just because people haven't had much of an education doesn't mean they are incapable of weighing up who to support, though.

Like most people everywhere, I guess the consideration is who will benefit me and mine best?

In which case, the "establishment" in Thailand hasn't got much of a record in the poorer areas, has it? So it shouldn't be a great surprise that anyone saying they will look after their needs will get their vote.

Taxin is part of the Thai elite. He is part of the establishment. He has gone to huge lengths to ingratiate himself with the military and the royals. The military and the royals are now quite happy to accept rich merchants into the fold if they grease enough palms.

It is my understanding that Thaksin had quite a lot of the military on his side and it was because he threatened the clique who currently control the military that they took action. In other words, Thaksin versus the generals is simply the same old power play about which group of the elite get to enjoy the spoils.

Poor Thais do not support Thaksin because they are uneducated. It is more complex than that, but several years complete domination of TV helped, as does Thai naivity in believing anyone who comes along bearing free gifts.

Ian

quote:

Add to that the choices presented, usually that between a moron and a puppet, and it is difficult to see how democracy could ever work in the real world.

Can you honestly think of a better way to run a country? We seem to do pretty well in Europe. Not only are we reasonably prosperous, we are fairly free of judicial abuse and criminal exploitation. A down side is that, in the end, our parties generally follow very similar agendas, and as a result start to get silly when looking for our votes. But anyone with a record as bad as Thaksin would not even retain his deposit.

Ian

quote:

Can you honestly think of a better way to run a country?

Well yes, since you asked.
A benevolent dictatorship but run not by politicians, but by the finest minds that that country has to offer. In fact I would go further and replace 'country' with 'world' and have this body make decisions for the benefit of mankind.

Now if that isn't idealism I don't know what is!

Einstein put it better:

'A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society'.

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:

quote:

Interesting aspect to this thread. Just because people haven't had much of an education doesn't mean they are incapable of weighing up who to support, though.

Like most people everywhere, I guess the consideration is who will benefit me and mine best?

In which case, the "establishment" in Thailand hasn't got much of a record in the poorer areas, has it? So it shouldn't be a great surprise that anyone saying they will look after their needs will get their vote.

Taxin is part of the Thai elite. He is part of the establishment. He has gone to huge lengths to ingratiate himself with the military and the royals. The military and the royals are now quite happy to accept rich merchants into the fold if they grease enough palms.

It is my understanding that Thaksin had quite a lot of the military on his side and it was because he threatened the clique who currently control the military that they took action. In other words, Thaksin versus the generals is simply the same old power play about which group of the elite get to enjoy the spoils.

Poor Thais do not support Thaksin because they are uneducated. It is more complex than that, but several years complete domination of TV helped, as does Thai naivity in believing anyone who comes along bearing free gifts.

Ian

I think that's pretty much what I said. But I don't believe they are so naive in believing the first person who comes along bearing free gifts - it needed to be a bit more than that last time. Worked to an extent, I thought?

I have no doubt that toxin is part of the establishment, but he did challenge some of the old guard - I'm on your side with your view of Thai royalty by the by. Even the old guard have to accept the times they are a changing!

And it is and it will, in which way and over what period of time and why will be for future historians to discuss at their leisure.

It'll probably be America's fault, or Blairs.

quote:

That may be the case in a normal democracy, but Thailand falls short of 'normal'. Many of the elite you speak about are those making sure the votes go precisely where they want them to. 'People Power Party' - what a misnomer! 'Rich Fat Cats Milking The Country Dry Party' has a much truer ring to it. Most of the educated working and middle class see right through their façade but don't number enough to make a difference at the polls. With well over 70% of the population living in, or coming from, rural areas with minimal education and low income, 'democracy' comes cheap to those wealthy and corrupt enough to buy it.

Absolutely bang on Paul, I've said the same for years and your point about the educated and middle classes was confirmed to me last year when talking to a Thai university professor. Thaksin was got rid of because he was growing so powerful that he challenged the real power holders - the military. In effect the military have been in charge since the kingdom became a constitutional monarchy - 17 coups in 60 years shows where the real power lies.

I wonder how many of the people that voted for the PPP party remember the leader's history - surely they must remember the last coup? Apparently this guy was deputy prime minister during the troubles in 1992 and justified the shootings that took place - saying the demonstrators were troublemakers and communists!

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1696912,00.html

What a choice - The Democrat Party effectively controlled by the military or The PPP that is led by someone who supported the killing of people exercising what we would call our democratic rights.

In my opinion Thailand has never had true democracy - how the hell can it when the news is managed and censored and votes are bought? People tend to believe what they see on TV or hear on the radio - what other way have they of knowing what's going on? The country's ecomony has shown growth over the last few years but try telling that to the ordinary folks - all that has really happened is the social gap has widened.

I think the next few months are could be worrying times in Thailand - I just hope the king stays with us long enough to see things through because if trouble does kick off and he's not around............???????????

This guy's got it spot on:

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader4119.htm

quote:

Originally posted by maokaang:

quote:

Excuse my ignorance, but how independent is the Election Commission? Who appointed them?

Excused.

ECT History According to the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand B.E. 2540 (1997), Section 136, the Election Commission consists of a Chairman and other four Commissioners appointed by His Majesty the King on the advice of the Senate, from persons of apparent impartiality and integrity.

Remember though, T.I.T.

Thanks for that.

So appointed "on the advice of the senate." That'll be the military junta then. Not very independent.

Basically, my opinion is that although the PPP may be guilty of buying votes, the other parties are almost certainly just as guilty. As you say, Paul, T.I.T.

Dan, Winston Churchill once said:-

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

quote:

Was it indeed like that where you were? Were the dogs disturbed by the those who might just have been distributing a few hundred baht to the local populace?

John, my understanding is that the process is a little slicker than that and carried out in the weeks preceding an election. Otherwise the parties would need the logistical assistance of a bloke in a sleigh with reindeers!

The centre-fold flyers handed out by Senators et al are conveniently sized to allow for all denominations issued by the Bank of Thailand. To minimise the avoidance of any doubt, the number (party) to vote for is clearly displayed!

Packpao

My wife was just on the phone to her son in Nan Province in the North. The only people handing out bribes there over the weeks preceding the election were the Democrats. My stepson told them to keep it, others took it but voted for whom they wanted anyway. These poor uneducated rural folk aren't as daft as some may think.

I am sure the PPP did the same in other areas where their support was more marginal, but accusing one party of this and not another is like handing out speeding tickets at a Formula 1 race.

Let's not forget why this election is being held - a coup that removed a democratically elected govt. That's more abhorrent IMHO than anything else that has gone on.

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Parry:
... a coup that removed a democratically elected govt. That's more abhorrent IMHO than anything else that has gone on.

Only time will tell if that is true ... ...

quote:

These poor uneducated rural folk aren't as daft as some may think.

Nice to read some balanced opinion.

It seems that if all one did was to read some of these western comment sites and forums, then one would conclude that the Thais knew nothing whatsoever.

Those who seem to be making the most noise are those who don't even have the right to vote.

Packpao

Well, I am off to Thailand this evening and will be interested in the views on this whole subject of as many locals as I can talk to about it. I'd rather that than just read the papers. If there is anything interesting to tell I'll post again on here in 3 weeks when I get back.

A Happy New Year to all.