quote:

I have to admit to a certain amount of schadenfreud (sp?), as it was mostly the above group who applauded the coup for getting rid of Taksin!

I take it you are NOT including me in that comment? There were some silly comments earlier along those lines, so lets not get into endless loops here please.

For the record, afaiac, Thaksin = bad, coup = worse.

Ian

quote:

But what is so wrong with that? Implicit in that statement is that somehow Western values are better.

Why? Who said that? Thats your own interpretation. Surely it is not saying that culture A is better than culture B if you want both cultures to be treated fairly? If I think someone is anti black does it mean that I think black people are better than white?

But you open up some huge and interesting issues. As it happens, I love Thai culture, but I am not blind to the very obvious shortcomings.

Similarly, I disagree with many aspects of so called western culture, but I do not think that a dictatorship passing nasty laws is the way to protect Thai culture - if indeed it needs protecting. Thai culture is strong, but its biggest threat lies not from the west but from the north. For every scruffy farang eeking out a living running a beer bar, there are a dozen Thais running brothels, Thai police making money from bribes, and land lords taking rent from both Thai and farang run bars. However much I think this through, I cannot put it down to "western culture".

Ian

"But what is so wrong with that? Implicit in that statement is that somehow Western values are better. The West has a history of imposing and eventually overwhelming the 'less fortunate' countries that have not had the 'benefit' of Western values. Once lost these values are gone forever."

I fully agree with this. Look at how villages, communities and such are sold out for apartment buildings and hotels that the owners have no interest in other than financial. I think beer bars are not the problem and in no ways a threat, it is the property tycoon that is. They have already destroyed the likes of Samui and Phuket with ugly high-rised hotels, apartment blocks and if they are given a free reign they will build on every space available.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian M:
Look at how villages, communities and such are sold out for apartment buildings and hotels that the owners have no interest in other than financial.

I don't like this whole Western/Asian values thing at all. I don't think it's useful. It's not at all clear-cut and it leads to the whole idea of one being 'better', which is even less useful.

Just take your example, the owners of the buildings are most likely Thai. Look at all the awful construction going on in all of Asia. If you want to talk about 'Western values' vs 'Asian Values' then you'd have to admit that environmentalism, conservation, planning for community needs, etc etc are all Western values whilst throwing up huge buildings for quick profits are Asian values.

Every single morning on my way to work in Bangkok I see Thai people drop plastic bags (their finished iced drinks) and bottles into the river and people around them don't even notice. I don't believe that you could drop a plastic bag into The Thames in the same way. Ever seen the rubbish being thrown out of trains in Thailand? Is such disrespect for the environment an 'Asian Value'?

Dan says he'd hate to see famuily values eroded to the point they have been in Britain. Well, I understand and agree - but it has nothing to do with 'Western' vs. 'Asian' values.

If it were we could say look at the 'Western values' of small families leading to greater investment into each child's future, equality between boys and girls, goverment support for each child in the form of benefits, free education, etc etc

Then look at the 'Asian values' of pulling children out of school to work, girls having fewer opportunities than boys, education being a matter of how much each family can afford, children being dumped with grandparents to be brought up, etc etc

What I'm saying is that the idea of 'Western' vs 'Asian' values (and the idea that one can be 'better') just doesn't apply.

As for Christianity vs Buddhism, well I again understand what you're saying and personally I find anyone who tries to go out and convert very distasteful indeed. But Christianity has been in Thailand for 400 years and Thais have as much right to change and/or adapt their religion as anyone.

You say you'd hate to see Buddhism replaced by Christianity in Thailand. Well, Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in the West. Would you say you'd hate to see Christianity replaced by Buddhism there?

In both cases it's very unlikely! It just goes to show again how meaningless this false 'Western' vs 'Asian' arguement is.

I'm not trying to pick fights here. I'm just saying that this whole 'western vs Aian values' thing holds no sense - and as Asia continues to become more 'Western' and the West continues to become more 'Asian', it will hold less and less sense.

quote:

I fully agree with this. Look at how villages, communities and such are sold out for apartment buildings and hotels that the owners have no interest in other than financial.

I once heard on Thai TV the mayor of Krabi saying that the beaches of Krabi are like a young woman. While they have value, you should exploit that value before her charms are lost and worthless. Therefore building on the beaches was completely understandable and necessary. Need any more be said?

Ian

PS For the record I agree with every word of Marcus's post above . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:

quote:

I have to admit to a certain amount of schadenfreud (sp?), as it was mostly the above group who applauded the coup for getting rid of Taksin!

I take it you are NOT including me in that comment?

The only way anyone could question if they are included is if they belong to one of the groups Dan listed; i.e.
bleating farangs complaining that they can't buy beer on such and such a day, or that their illegal businesses are being closed down, or that retirees that contribute nothing to the society and are in Thailand to avoid paying the Western ex-wife's and children's maintainence"

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
Similarly, I disagree with many aspects of so called western culture, but I do not think that a dictatorship passing nasty laws is the way to protect Thai culture - if indeed it needs protecting.

i am struggling to think of any nasty anti-western laws at all that have been passed by the military-backed government.

ian.

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
PS For the record I agree with every word of Marcus's post above . . . .

Smelling salts, quickly!

And as soon as I recover from my faint I'm going to print this out and frame it and put it on the wall next to the computer.

IanB, I owe you a beer!

quote:

I once heard on Thai TV the mayor of Krabi saying that the beaches of Krabi are like a young woman. While they have value, you should exploit that value before her charms are lost and worthless. Therefore building on the beaches was completely understandable and necessary. Need any more be said?

This issue relates to foreign investment and the impact it has. I don't understand what it has to do with what Thai people do or say as quoted above.

"Just take your example, the owners of the buildings are most likely Thai."
I cannot talk about Bangkok as I don't go there too often for the reasons you already mentioned. I am talking about Phuket and Samui where the hotels and accomodation are nearly all foreign owned.

If somebody such as the Mayor of Krabi wants to make personal gains then policies such as this actually reflect positively on Thai society that they are trying to put a stop to such greed and exploitation.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian M:
they are trying to put a stop to such greed and exploitation.

Adrian, really, that's the funniest thing I've heard all day. I'm sorry, but IanB quoted the Mayor of Krabi because that really is the prevailing attitude in Thailand.

If the Thais are acting against Western involvement in beachside developments as you suggest (and I really don't know enough about this), then I can assure you it would have more to do with the channeling of profits and have nothing whatsoever to do with ending greed!

quote:

I am talking about Phuket and Samui where the hotels and accomodation are nearly all foreign owned.

More likely Thai owned and foreign managed given the situation with land ownership etc.
ash

quote:

Adrian, really, that's the funniest thing I've heard all day. I'm sorry, but IanB quoted the Mayor of Krabi because that really is the prevailing attitude in Thailand.

I am glad it made you laugh Marcus ..
The prevailling attitude in Thailand??? How on earth can anybody claim to know this with so many people and such a large country? Do you mean to say that the majority of Thailand think like this? Because one person in Krabi talks about his views does this represent everybody?

If it is the prevailling attitude why is this policy being put in place? Surely they would make policies to open up opportunity for land ownership and investment. Other policies have clamped down on visas and concentrated on improving teaching standards in the education sector which are beneficial also.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian M:
Because one person in Krabi talks about his views does this represent everybody?

No, Adrian, you are quite right. The mayor of Krabi represents only himself. Any opinions he holds and chooses to express can not be considered as anything other than his own personal idiosyncratic views and are not at all likely to be shared by others in his community.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian M:
If it is the prevailling attitude why is this policy being put in place?

Which policy?

quote:

The prevailling attitude in Thailand??? How on earth can anybody claim to know this with so many people and such a large country?

We are talking about the willing destruction of the Thai environment by Thai (and chinese) people. The examples are numerous, but the effect is obvious to anyone driving around on the polluted and overcrowded roads, through town after town where old buildings have been flattened for ugly shop-house development.

Thailand has made some progress, for instance in halting logging within its own boundaries, but Thai businesses are taking the lead in the wholesale destruction of the forests of Myanmar, Laos, and Cambodia.

There are superb examples of Thai environmentalists trying to stop or reverse the destruction, often backed by western campaigners such as Bird Life International. To be honest, I don't know what the average Thai in the street thinks about this. But I do believe that the prevailing attitude in the business community is "take it while its there".

In contrast, any development which is funded by western interests is likely to have to follow strict environmental guidelines, including basics such as not pumping raw sewage into the sea.

On this basis, I think it is wrong to blame western businesses for the destruction of Thailand's environment or culture. I think controlled investment in Thailand from the West is good for the economy and for the environment.

Ian

who's blaming western businesses for destroying thailand's environment?

as to whether western businesses help to destroy thai culture, arguments will continue to rage. having seen the likes of mcdonald’s and pizza hut spread their hideous tentacles as far as koh samui, i disagree strongly with u on this one.

ian.

quote:

The examples are numerous, but the effect is obvious to anyone driving around on the polluted and overcrowded roads, through town after town where old buildings have been flattened for ugly shop-house development.

I assume this is BKK you are talking about? I have driven around a lot of Thailand and I have not come across anything like BKK. For example, if you drive south on Sukhamvit Road from BKK to Rayong there are some ugly little towns by the face of them such as Chonburi and Sri Racha but when you go into the back roads they are actually very pleasant. The majority of this road remains fields and open spaces and the pollution is very low. Soon after you hit Pattaya, which is a country unto its own however! Not that I have ever been there

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian M:

quote:

The examples are numerous, but the effect is obvious to anyone driving around on the polluted and overcrowded roads, through town after town where old buildings have been flattened for ugly shop-house development.

if you drive south on Sukhamvit Road from BKK to Rayong there are some ugly little towns by the face of them such as Chonburi and Sri Racha

So, Adrian, basically you are saying that you agree with IanB. Excellent! Peace and tranquility reign this week on Thailand-UK!

Now that's what I call 'creative editing'! There's a job for you here somewhere ......

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
Thailand has made some progress, for instance in halting logging within its own boundaries,

That was easy, no viable trees left.

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
but Thai businesses are taking the lead in the wholesale destruction of the forests of Myanmar, Laos, and Cambodia.

See above and reverse it.

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
I don't know what the average Thai in the street thinks about this. But I do believe that the prevailing attitude in the business community is "take it while its there".

Exactly, profit today, tomorrow hasn't happened yet

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
In contrast, any development which is funded by western interests is likely to have to follow strict environmental guidelines, including basics such as not pumping raw sewage into the sea.

True, for the most part, but profit is still the most important factor to any business, irrespective of nationality.

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
I think controlled investment in Thailand from the West is good for the economy and for the environment.

Agreed, but they aren't Thai, so it will never happen.

I don't like it when people try to stereotype Thai nationals, they are just people, however there are some traits that appear far too frequently to be ignored and they happen through every sector of Thai society.

An example.

Some of us here go fishing, just for fun .... every catch is put back into the water.... the locals look at us like we are crazy.

They fish for food and when they catch a fish that is suitable for eating it goes into the bucket of water, if it is too small what happens? do they put it back so it can grow some more? a minority may do, but most just toss it over their shoulder to die ...... absolutely no thought for tomorrow, or cause and effect.

quote:

So, Adrian, basically you are saying that you agree with IanB.

I am not arguing for argument sake I just think that BKK is completely different to the rest of Thailand. The small towns do appear ugly but if you venture inwards many are very nice indeed.

quote:

I am not arguing for argument sake I just think that BKK is completely different to the rest of Thailand. The small towns do appear ugly but if you venture inwards many are very nice indeed.

I am not talking about BKK. How many original wooden houses remain in Thai towns? Generally, the only old buildings left are temples. Thailand was not always 100% concrete, and as I understand it, altough I have never been there, if you visit Laos you might just be lucky enough to see what Thailand used to be like.

I have driven extensively around Thailand. I can only think of one or two towns that have any sort of uniqueness or which are actually pleasant to visit. All of the rest are simply noisy and polluted.

I am not saying that time should be frozen, but I do think that Thailand has lost one hell of a lot.

Another example, that makes me really upset, is Khao Sam Roi Yot, one of the most important national parks in Thailand. When I was there, the huge fresh water marsh at its centre was being nimbled away by prawn farms, but was still very impressive, but the surrounding brackish wetlands had almost completely gone. I dread to think what is left now.

Ian

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:

quote:

I am not arguing for argument sake I just think that BKK is completely different to the rest of Thailand. The small towns do appear ugly but if you venture inwards many are very nice indeed.

I am not talking about BKK. How many original wooden houses remain in Thai towns?

More than a couple

As for the rest of the quoted post ..... words fail me.

quote:

Originally posted by IanB:
I have driven extensively around Thailand. I can only think of one or two towns that have any sort of uniqueness or which are actually pleasant to visit. All of the rest are simply noisy and polluted.

Got to agree. Sometimes I look at these places, blink, and could almost be back in Bangkok.

quote:

I have driven extensively around Thailand. I can only think of one or two towns that have any sort of uniqueness or which are actually pleasant to visit

Only a couple of pleasant towns in Thailand? I can only assume you mean pass