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  1. #21
    Premium Member KhunIanB-UK's Avatar
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    "KhunIanB-UK. You really think all that fuss is justifiable for doing a few hours 3 nights a week"

    Yes, all that fuss that takes a matter of minutes to have peace of mind for weeks/months/years, even if it means walking away. Exploitation, pure and simple and falling into it will only make matters worse, career/employment prospects won't increase with that type of employer :-S

    I only do a few hours 5 days a week, but feel a certain level of protection with my above board employer :-)

    http://www.thailand-uk.com/forums/sh...ving-Illegally
    Last edited by KhunIanB-UK; 4th Jun 2011 at 00:39.

  2. #22
    Forum Antiquity ความเก่า dan&ploy's Avatar
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    Just my satang's worth.

    I wouldn't even look at this as employment. I think RichardSt's wife just wants to mix with some Thai people, eat some Thai food and keep herself busy. It just so happens she gets paid for that. It's like Phetchy and Dave meeting up for a bite to eat and the restaurant paying them for their time.

    If she is serving it should help her confidence in speaking English in a real situation. And if it stays at just a couple of nights a week then it shouldn't affect her studies.

    If you stop her doing it I think you might have a problem because she will not understand the rigidity of the U.K. law in this respect - there is a minimum wage in Thailand.

    Even if the restaurant is raided by immigration - and what are the chances of that - she is in the clear.

    And McDonalds can afford to pay higher salaries by not actually serving real food, and having the financial clout to extort their suppliers. There is no comparison with the cost of imported hor la pa and makua.

  3. #23
    Forum Antiquity ของโบราณ Linne's Avatar
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    the issue with this twilight employment is that it penalises the honest employers ............makes me wonder what other regulations they are not complying with ??? maybe the kitchen inspectors need to pay a visit ?

    do we condone the the part time taxis........the ones without plates and relevant insurance etc.........no shortage in the cities........should we abolish the gang masters authority and allow the rogues to employ illegal veg pickers for next to nought ?

    Mcdonalds ?? maybe harvester or starbucks or wetherspoons etc........they get it right

  4. #24
    Forum Antiquity ความเก่า dan&ploy's Avatar
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    This is not a criticism, just an observation.

    The for and against people on this thread appear to be the same grouping as the people who could or could not live in Thailand permanently. Discuss!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan&ploy View Post
    Just my satang's worth.

    I wouldn't even look at this as employment. I think RichardSt's wife just wants to mix with some Thai people, eat some Thai food and keep herself busy. It just so happens she gets paid for that. It's like Phetchy and Dave meeting up for a bite to eat and the restaurant paying them for their time.
    Spot On Dan. My good lady is forever telling me she needs a lift to go "help out" at various restaurants. Does she get paid minimum wage? Is she "on the books"? Don't know and don't care really. She comes home happy and with all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff to put in the freezer and enough gossip to keep her going for weeks
    A lot of people here have bought into the whole regulated life thing. Personally I prefer to make my own decisions as I go along. Life's too short to spend time looking for the applicable rule, regulation or law in respect of the small stuff.
    If it feels right, do it. If not, walk away.

  6. #26
    Premium Member KhunIanB-UK's Avatar
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    Dan,

    I could live in Thailand permanantely and there I wouldn't delibirately put myself in a situation of risk or worry, especially if it caused a problem with immigration. When a law is there for your benefit too like employment or seatbelt it only makes sense to use it. I'll continue to wear a seatbelt on every journey in both UK and Thailand, partly because of the law, but predominantely for my own safety ;-) The inital fuss to sort it out can save a lot of fuss later.

    "If it feels right, do it. If not, walk away"

    Agreed, to me it would feel very wrong.

  7. #27
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    At the end of the day such activity is illegal. We have these laws to protect the vulnerable and to ensure no one in this country is exploited by unscrupulous employers. There is a minimum wage for good reason and those employers who do not pay at least minimum wage are quite frankly taking advantage of the individuals they are refusing to pay a legal wage to. Do you think for one second the employer is working for minimum wage? I don't think so, they are probably doing very well thank you very much, thanks to those kind victims who are brought in to do the work for less than a proper wage.

    It is illegal. If a business chooses to trade in the UK it must operate without exception under UK law, no excuses. Why is it that when in Thailand we Brits must accept Thai culture and idiosyncrasies without question because that's just how it is done in Thailand? Well this is England, we have laws to protect the rights and well-being of our workers, employees, customers and members of the public. Why should these people be given any special dispensation? What is so special about them? Why not throw away our employment protection laws altogether shall we and see where that leaves the vulnerable, the uneducated, the unskilled the ....
    Tobias - โทเบียส
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Do you think for one second the employer is working for minimum wage? I don't think so, they are probably doing very well thank you very much
    Obviously the last few years have had no affect on the legal profession
    Restaurants, bars, cafes etc seem to have been hardest hit up here.
    And as for minimum wage, I know many employers who would be over the moon to get that level of increase

  9. #29
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    ... I know many employers who would be over the moon to get that level of increase
    Then perhaps it's time for them to call it a day ... if a business isn't viable why flog the proverbial dead-horse?
    Tobias - โทเบียส
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  10. #30
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    Optimism? Pride? I dunno really but 100 hours @ £3/hour is still a bit better than benefit and you made it yourself.
    Or probably, the lack of an alternative.

  11. #31
    Forum Antiquity ของโบราณ Flip's Avatar
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    Richard,

    We live in the same area - almost all the Thai restaurants that I know in Leeds & Harrogate operate in the same way - cash in hand and under the minimum wage (I'd take a bet that its nationwide). There is only one I know of that have their employees 'on the books'. If you want to be sure that your wife is on the right side of the law and has full rights - see if they need any staff at the Sukothai - 2 branches in Leeds and a new one in Harrogate. Even then I'd bet that not all of their staff are 'on the books'.

    Its all very well for us to sit commenting about these practices but remember, we are talking about Thai's - from a country where 'under the table' is the norm. It isn't right but they ain't about to change anything soon.

  12. #32
    Forum Antiquity ของโบราณ Linne's Avatar
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    i wonder what working practices operate in thailand with the likes of Tesco lotus or Mcd,s or Black Canyon or BK. Its a matter of enforcement in this country. If they break one law then they probably break a few others. The phrase cowboys comes to mind. A level playing field in a competitive market.

  13. #33
    R.I.P. ddwjg's Avatar
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    Keith summed it up beautifully in an earlier post. As did Jack.

    Its not just the amount of cash per hour. The benefits are in the perks, and also gaining experience in the catering industry. The perks could take it well over the minimum wage anyway. And really, we are only talking about a few hours a week.

    A lot of economic experts would probably say the UK is in the mess it is today because of the minimum wage laws. Most prices find their own level through the laws of supply and demand. The same applies to wages. The pressure it puts on small businesses, particularly in catering, is immense.

    Dave.

  14. #34
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddwjg View Post
    ... And really, we are only talking about a few hours a week ...
    Irrelevant. ... so it's okay to break the law provided it's only for a few hours per week???!

    Quote Originally Posted by ddwjg View Post
    ... A lot of economic experts would probably say the UK is in the mess it is today because of the minimum wage laws....
    Name me one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flip View Post
    ... Its all very well for us to sit commenting about these practices but remember, we are talking about Thai's - from a country where 'under the table' is the norm. .. .
    As I said earlier Flip:

    “If a business chooses to trade in the UK it must operate without exception under UK law, no excuses. Why is it that when in Thailand we Brits must accept Thai culture and idiosyncrasies without question because that's just how it is done in Thailand? Well this is England, we have laws to protect the rights and well-being of our workers, employees, customers and members of the public. Why should these people be given any special dispensation? What is so special about them?”
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    If you want to know where I am, follow me on my Thailand-UK Blog.

  15. #35
    Premium Member -Keith-'s Avatar
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    This is common in restaurants all over the country; Thai, Chinese, Indian blah blah blah. Are you strictly by the book types telling me that the authorities actually give a rats arse.

  16. #36
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    It is still ILLEGAL! It is wrong, it is exploitation and ultimately it is the British tax payer who ends up paying more.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    If you want to know where I am, follow me on my Thailand-UK Blog.

  17. #37
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    There's always exeptions,, and a few of the owners here(se,coast)q pay very good wages, have good buissness and of course all the other perks were talking about , social ,food etc, the rate of wage origanaly talked about is prob on par with most very low paying employers for cash i asume, but would not be entertained on a personal level with us

  18. #38
    Forum Antiquity ของโบราณ Flip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    As I said earlier Flip:

    “If a business chooses to trade in the UK it must operate without exception under UK law, no excuses. Why is it that when in Thailand we Brits must accept Thai culture and idiosyncrasies without question because that's just how it is done in Thailand? Well this is England, we have laws to protect the rights and well-being of our workers, employees, customers and members of the public. Why should these people be given any special dispensation? What is so special about them?”
    I agree with you Tobias - all I'm saying is that they won't change.

  19. #39
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    It won't change Flip for one reason ... people put up with it and do nothing about it often because they are not aware of their legal rights.

    I have reported several restaurants to the authorities for illegal work practices. When the authorities know, they take action - every time. I have no hesitation in reporting any employer to the authorities where that employer blatantly exploits its workforce.

    There is NEVER an excuse for exploitation - no matter how anyone tries to dress it up.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
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  20. #40
    Forum Regular สมาชิกประจำ RichardSt's Avatar
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    Just tried to PM you Flip - but you've exceeded your quota....

    Nothing urgent

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