Have ILR, do I need a visa for France

[bualoy]

I have my ILR visa and we want to go to Paris. Do I still need a visa from the French embassy because someone told me that now I have ILR I dont need one anymore.

Is this right?

[the_link]

As you still don't possess a British passport, bualoy, you will require a Schengen.

[KhunIanB-UK]

As the_link says with an UK ILR you will need a Schengen Visa to travel to France or any other Schengen signed up Country in Europe. Once you qualify and gain citizenship then that is the stage where Schengens are no longer necessary. Some Schengens are easier to get than others, depending on the Country/Embassy. If your partner is British/EU Citizen and you will be travelling with them then the Schengen should be free and expedited (according to EU Law it will, but in practice there's always some catch) , there will be some questions that you don't need to answer on the form, used to be marked with an *. If your partner is not an EU Citizen then all questions and fees apply.

[9851colle]

yes indeed Ian and the link are correct, you need a schengan visa, as you have alluded you wish to go to Paris then you should obtain this from the French embassy as this is the first country you are going to visit, however if the first country is a different country in the schengan area then you should apply to that country.

It is a straight forward process and if your spouse is from the EU then its free.

Mick

[bualoy]

Thank you

[LaJo]

No, you will still need a visa if you are required to do so. However, if you are the family member of an EU national, you will be entitled to a free-facilitated visa.

[dotty]

Hi all
On a very similar tack. My Thai wife and her Thai daughter have just been granted British citizenship. Their UK passports have now been applied for. They both have ILR in their Thai passports.

We hope to go to Spain, driving through France en route (if it makes things easier we can take the ferry to Belgium or Holland first). Applying for a Spanish Schengen is a non starter.
The UK passports may not arrive in time for us to use them on this trip.

So, if a British citizen holding a Thai passport wishes to travel to Schengen do they need a Schengen visa?

It may get more complicated. I suspect that daughter's passport will come back quickly but my wife's will require a passport interview which will delay things. I.e. one will have the UK passport and the other won't.

As a family we are very close to coming to the end of this visa farce and hopefully soon we can travel easily as a family. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Dotty

[Gary & Nok]

So, if a British citizen holding a Thai passport wishes to travel to Schengen do they need a Schengen visa?

I would imagine that if travelling on a Thai passport then you will be treated as a Thai citizen and not British so therefore a Schengen visa would be required.
Could be wrong and no doubt will be corrected if that is the case.

[KhunIanB-UK]

I think the same, you are stuck in no mans land and the only evidence you can produce is a Thai passport with ILR and so think it will have to be a (Free and Expidited) Shengen Visa, but hope the legal eagles might be able to shed a different light on this for you. Hope you can get the UK passport interview and passport sorted quickly though, good luck!

[Tobias]

... My Thai wife and her Thai daughter have just been granted British citizenship. Their UK passports have now been applied for. They both have ILR in their Thai passports...

I would imagine that if travelling on a Thai passport then you will be treated as a Thai citizen and not British so therefore a Schengen visa would be required.
Could be wrong and no doubt will be corrected if that is the case.

Wrong

I think the same, you are stuck in no mans land and the only evidence you can produce is a Thai passport with ILR and so think it will have to be a (Free and Expidited) Shengen Visa, but hope the legal eagles might be able to shed a different light on this for you. Hope you can get the UK passport interview and passport sorted quickly though, good luck!

Ian, what a short memory!

Dotty, I'm a little busy at the moment but it shouldn't be a problem travelling without a visa, please read this topic: Urgent Help needed please. It is important that you read all of it though to ensure you are fully aware of the legal position.

Any questions, please ask.

[bifftastic]

One thing you need to be careful of if you're travelling through the French customs posts at the ferry ports late at night. Don't wake them up!

[Tobias]

... Certainly, the French won't recognise a naturalisation certificate as evidence of your wife's (British) nationality...

The must accept it. The problem here is that there is no travel document and that does pose a problem. The argument is academic as the naturalisation certificate is not in Dotty's possession either.

[dotty]

Folks
Hopefully we can get the Naturalisation Cert & Thai passport back earlier, in time for the trip. I'll call during working hours tomorrow & speak to the passport office directly rather than their evening call centre to try and arrange their return.

The question remains though, would wifey be breaking some sort of rule by leaving the UK while her application for a passport was under consideration?

That's what the call centre told me. I find it hard to believe.

However, I remember a colleague falling foul of some rule by posting his 2nd passport to a visa agency while he was abroad using his 1st passport. Customs recognised the address, seized it and he had to go cap in hand to get it back. Cost him a fine as well. It's clear that there are some obscure rules out there.

Cheers
Dotty

[Merseymike]

The must accept it...

Under Directive 2004/38, someone wishing to assert their EEA citizenship when passing through a border has to demonstrate their entitlement by means of either a travel document or national ID card, of which a naturalisation certificate is neither. Article 5(1) states:-

...Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport ...

If Dotty presents the cert with a Thai passport, the French IO will determine his wife's nationality according to the passport. He can then, of course, admit her without a visa if she is able to show she is the family member of an EEA citizen, e.g. a marriage certificate.

[bifftastic]

Wouldn't the above documents involve some translation difficulties?

I know that we would have issues, as our marriage certificates are in Thai. But if they were in English it's a bit of an assumption that a French IO would be able to read them isn't it?

They might default to 'no visa, no entry' if presented with a Thai passport and some official documents in English.

[Tobias]

Under Directive 2004/38, someone wishing to assert their EEA citizenship when passing through a border has to demonstrate their entitlement by means of either a travel document or national ID card, of which a naturalisation certificate is neither. Article 5(1) states:-

If Dotty presents the cert with a Thai passport, the French IO will determine his wife's nationality according to the passport. He can then, of course, admit her without a visa if she is able to show she is the family member of an EEA citizen, e.g. a marriage certificate.

Selective posting of the Regs there MM! I have a plane to catch so have no time to start this debate again, have a look at the topic Urgent Help needed pleasewhere I clearly set out the law. The French cannot lawfully refuse entry in the circumstances mentioned.

... They might default to 'no visa, no entry' if presented with a Thai passport and some official documents in English.

Then they would be breaching EU law.

[bifftastic]

So, they cannot lawfully refuse entry, but they cannot read the documents presented. It's one thing to start a law suit against the French and another entirely to have a nice trip to France.

[Tobias]

All IOs across the EU (and very likely the world) speak and read English and where they don't interpretors are available. Futile argument, the law is the law.

[Merseymike]

I agree that the French can admit Dotty's wife as a Thai citizen without a visa on the basis that she is the family member of a EEA citizen, but your original contention was that a French IO must accept the certificate of naturalisation as evidence of her British citizenship. This is not so, as it is neither a passport nor an identity card.

She can therefore enter France as a Thai citizen without a visa, but not as a British citizen until such a time as she has a British passport.

[bifftastic]

It wasn't an argument, as in ' I want to win an argument ' it was what I thought might happen.

As a thought, it can't be futile really can it? Especially seeing as you have addressed it. Now it becomes a question, which you have, quite rudely actually, answered.


Enjoy your flight.