Have ILR, do I need a visa for France

[Tobias]

... Certainly, the French won't recognise a naturalisation certificate as evidence of your wife's (British) nationality...

The must accept it. The problem here is that there is no travel document and that does pose a problem. The argument is academic as the naturalisation certificate is not in Dotty's possession either.

[dotty]

Folks
Hopefully we can get the Naturalisation Cert & Thai passport back earlier, in time for the trip. I'll call during working hours tomorrow & speak to the passport office directly rather than their evening call centre to try and arrange their return.

The question remains though, would wifey be breaking some sort of rule by leaving the UK while her application for a passport was under consideration?

That's what the call centre told me. I find it hard to believe.

However, I remember a colleague falling foul of some rule by posting his 2nd passport to a visa agency while he was abroad using his 1st passport. Customs recognised the address, seized it and he had to go cap in hand to get it back. Cost him a fine as well. It's clear that there are some obscure rules out there.

Cheers
Dotty

[Merseymike]

The must accept it...

Under Directive 2004/38, someone wishing to assert their EEA citizenship when passing through a border has to demonstrate their entitlement by means of either a travel document or national ID card, of which a naturalisation certificate is neither. Article 5(1) states:-

...Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport ...

If Dotty presents the cert with a Thai passport, the French IO will determine his wife's nationality according to the passport. He can then, of course, admit her without a visa if she is able to show she is the family member of an EEA citizen, e.g. a marriage certificate.

[bifftastic]

Wouldn't the above documents involve some translation difficulties?

I know that we would have issues, as our marriage certificates are in Thai. But if they were in English it's a bit of an assumption that a French IO would be able to read them isn't it?

They might default to 'no visa, no entry' if presented with a Thai passport and some official documents in English.

[Tobias]

Under Directive 2004/38, someone wishing to assert their EEA citizenship when passing through a border has to demonstrate their entitlement by means of either a travel document or national ID card, of which a naturalisation certificate is neither. Article 5(1) states:-

If Dotty presents the cert with a Thai passport, the French IO will determine his wife's nationality according to the passport. He can then, of course, admit her without a visa if she is able to show she is the family member of an EEA citizen, e.g. a marriage certificate.

Selective posting of the Regs there MM! I have a plane to catch so have no time to start this debate again, have a look at the topic Urgent Help needed pleasewhere I clearly set out the law. The French cannot lawfully refuse entry in the circumstances mentioned.

... They might default to 'no visa, no entry' if presented with a Thai passport and some official documents in English.

Then they would be breaching EU law.

[bifftastic]

So, they cannot lawfully refuse entry, but they cannot read the documents presented. It's one thing to start a law suit against the French and another entirely to have a nice trip to France.

[Tobias]

All IOs across the EU (and very likely the world) speak and read English and where they don't interpretors are available. Futile argument, the law is the law.

[bifftastic]

It wasn't an argument, as in ' I want to win an argument ' it was what I thought might happen.

As a thought, it can't be futile really can it? Especially seeing as you have addressed it. Now it becomes a question, which you have, quite rudely actually, answered.


Enjoy your flight.

[Merseymike]

I agree that the French can admit Dotty's wife as a Thai citizen without a visa on the basis that she is the family member of a EEA citizen, but your original contention was that a French IO must accept the certificate of naturalisation as evidence of her British citizenship. This is not so, as it is neither a passport nor an identity card.

She can therefore enter France as a Thai citizen without a visa, but not as a British citizen until such a time as she has a British passport.

[Tobias]

... She can therefore enter France as a Thai citizen without a visa, but not as a British citizen until such a time as she has a British passport.

No MM, you are completely wrong. Please read the link in my earlier post, the law is clearly set out there for you, if you choose to read it. She is either British or she is not.

It wasn't an argument, as in ' I want to win an argument ' it was what I thought might happen.

As a thought, it can't be futile really can it? Especially seeing as you have addressed it. Now it becomes a question, which you have, quite rudely actually, answered...

It was an argument, but not in the sense you have implied by this quote. It wasn't rude, just straight to the point. The reason it was a 'futile argument' is because it has no merit 'in law'. I simply used legal terminology and for that I apologise if you misunderstood the sentiment.

[Merseymike]

No MM, you are completely wrong.

I'm afraid not. I'm already fully appraised of the law, thank you, and I'm of the opinion that my opinion is legally sound. I can see your point, but it manifests a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of a naturalisation certificate.

One never knows, given all of Dotty's wife's circumstances, the French might accept the naturalisation cert. at face value, but they are under no legal obligation to do so. A naturalisation cert. is not intended for production to authorities other than the British. It is not an internationally recognised document, and it is unreasonable to expect a foreign IO to have even seen one. If the position were reversed, I would guarantee that a British IO would not accept a French naturalisation certificate as corroboration of entitlement to enter the UK, and neither would they be obliged to do so. Instead, he would revert to considering the person to be of the nationality of their passport.

However, as agreed, Dotty's wife has Article 5 rights to enter France as a Thai citizen without a visa, being his family member. I therefore believe the pertinent documents are the wife's Thai passport plus her and Dotty's marriage certificate (plus translation if not in English).

[Tobias]

I'm sorry Merseymike, for the reasons I've clearly stated in the link I referred to earlier, you are wrong in law with your assertions.

[dotty]

Wow
This is great folks. Lots of stuff coming out here.

As Tobias noted my wife's Thai passport and Naturalisation cert are with the UK passport office as part of the application process. I spoke to their call centre today (3 times) and one of the call centre operatives (I can't think of a politer phrase) told me that if we request early return of the documents the rules state that the application must be cancelled. Interesting.

However, my wife has in her possession her Thai national ID card. This does what it says on the tiin and is proof of identity. We also have our original UK marriage certificate - in English. Any views on how that would stand up?


A tip for all passport applicants. Take a copy of the bar code on your passport application form.
The UK passport office call centre is there to screen callers. They are gatekeepers and will do their level best to stonewall and get rid of you. I persisted and in due course spoke to a lady at the passport office in Durham.
The call centre require your barcode. The website requires your barcode. When I finally spoke to Durham they asked for the barcode.
We didn't even know it existed. We don't have it.
However, in due course Durham acknowledged that they could search by name only.

However, due to data protection blahhdy blahhdy blah, my wife has to call personally to ask for a progress report on her own passport, and also that of our daughter.
It seems that I as stepfather am expected to pay all the bills & sign the cheques, but can't ask about our daughter's passport application.
So at least I did get through to Durham, spoke to a human, and established that we can find out about the progress of the application, even without this wretched barcode.
The chances of my wife negotiating the 0300 222 0000 "push button X for this service or..." system are nil. She will not be able to talk her way past the gatekeepers to get to Durham.
Consequently, tomorrow, I will be using Skype to get through to Durham again, and then adding my wife to the call using Skype's conference facility. I will be in Azerbaijan, wifey in Leicestershire.


I suppose after 5 years of battling through this painful, obscure, tortuous, expensive and downright inhuman process I should be prepared for a battle at every stage. It should not be that way.
Life is short enough as it is. To have to spend so much time and resources fighting through Government processes just to be with the woman you love and want to share those fleeting years with is not right. It really is not right.


Gripe over.
I sincerely hope others can gain from my ramblings and questions. Many thanks to those that have contributed to the discussion (or argument).

However - as I said above
Take a copy of the bar code on your passport application form.

Mods - any ideas on how to highlight that message further?

Cheers
Dotty

[Gary & Nok]

Mods - any ideas on how to highlight that message further?

Take a copy of the bar code on your passport application form.





Err, no!

[Merseymike]

...my wife has in her possession her Thai national ID card....We also have our original UK marriage certificate - in English. Any views on how that would stand up?

Your wife's Thai passport is of itself evidence of her nationality and identity. The passport, coupled with your marriage certificate is sufficient to establish her right of entry to France without a visa under Article 5(4) of the Directive. I'm sure it doesn't need saying, but you'll also need to be travelling with your wife and be able to establish your rights through your production of a British passport.

[dotty]

However, her Thai passport is with the UK passport application. I hope to find out tomorrow how to get it back. We may not get it in time.
She does have her Thai identity card - any good?
Cheers Dotty

[Merseymike]

Unfortunately, the Thai ID card, in this situation, is about as much use as a naturalisation certificate!

At the moment, your wife has neither the Brit nor her Thai passport. If she is to travel to France, she'll need either one or the other.