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  1. #41
    Furniture เฟอร์นิเจอร์ IanB's Avatar
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    Jack,

    There is no basis for that pathetic comment. The opposite is the case. People post their obnoxious views and bigotry on this forum and they do not expect to be argued with. They resent anyone who disagrees, and if they cannot make their case using facts they resort to attacks on me such as you have just made. you are not the first to suggest that by opposing racism I am doing something wrong, and you will not be the last.


    The fact is that the attacks on this forum on muslims "they should do this . . they should not do that . . they are part of tghe problem . . . " have direct and clear parallels with both BNP policy and the policies of the nazis against jews.

    People here should just come out into the open: what is YOUR proposed solution to "the muslim problem"?

  2. #42
    Forum Regular สมาชิกประจำ
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    Talking about the average Joe Bloggs on the street. He needs to be aware that the vast majority of Muslims are as much against these extremists as the rest of us.

    Jack

    Wise opinion no no no no, you got the wrong man

  3. #43
    Furniture เฟอร์นิเจอร์ IanB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tobias:
    IanB, again you put words in to my mouth. I haven't said they haven't demonstrated and I haven't said they should apologise. I have not read any anti-Muslim posts on here, they only exist in your mind.
    God you are slippery! Its true, you did not say they had not demonstrated. But you have put words in my mouth, because i never said that you had said that muslims had not demonstrated!!!

    What you DID say was: "But where are they when bombs planted in the name of Islam kill and maim ? Where is the condemnation then?" I answered that question with evidence. you slithered away.

  4. #44
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    The solution I refer to is a continuing solution ... and the problem is a compound problem. Sitting back and doing nothing is not going to resolve the problems we all face, our Muslim brothers and sisters included.

    A popular misconception in the western world is that all Muslims support the extremist point of view, a misconception that could be corrected if more (especially the Imams and the Muslim countries political leaders) spoke out and condemned the actions and teachings of the extremists with the same vigour as they do in condemning the cartoons or the teacher who named a teddy bear 'Mohamed'.

    If they stood up and challenged the extremest teachings by clarifying the true meaning of Islam then they would not need to feel the victim - but that particular part of the solution is down to the Muslim community. They must be part of the solution.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    If you want to know where I am, follow me on my Thailand-UK Blog.

  5. #45
    Forum Regular สมาชิกประจำ
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    People here should just come out into the open: what is YOUR proposed solution to "the muslim problem"?
    Muslim problem? To be honest, as requested, I don't really see one. I see a terror problem, an extremist problem but I think to lump it all together and call it a "Muslim Problem" is not really helpful.

    Where I see a problem is with the opposite ends of the spectrum, you telling me that they can do no wrong and the BNP and the likes telling me they can do no right

    So, for the time being I'll deal with it the way I always have, on an individual basis. Love or hate regardless or race, colour or religion.

    Jack

  6. #46
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    IanB, you either do not understand what I have written or you are purposely being awkward. Either way, I have better things to do than play your silly games and waste my time. Carry on putting words in my mouth, and as for the insults, well ...
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    If you want to know where I am, follow me on my Thailand-UK Blog.

  7. #47
    Old Hand มือเก่า DavidJohn's Avatar
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    The opinions as set out in this dicussion seem at first sight and during the to and fro of arument to be poles apart yet on closer examination there are lots of common points to be explored and compromises to be made to see how close many of the opinions are. The problem IanB has with the assertion muslims must act is that he sees they are but their efforts are not always reported within our press and media (probably due to it not being sensational enough). Muslims cannot be expected to decry all events committed in the name of Islam, when committed abroad neither should the British muslims be held responsible for these despicable acts such as stonings of rape victims and the excusing of the rapists.
    Right thinking people would not expect them to, would they?

  8. #48
    Furniture เฟอร์นิเจอร์ IanB's Avatar
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    DavidJohn makes a fair point and some common sense so I will say only 1 more thing:

    Where I see a problem is with the opposite ends of the spectrum, you telling me that they can do no wrong and the BNP and the likes telling me they can do no right
    I don't think I ever said that anyone could do no wrong. I condemn terrorism and all abuses of human rights. That is something we can all surely agree on?

  9. #49
    Premium Member ash's Avatar
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    I suspect that the majority of Muslims consider that the very few extremists are not Muslim at all. I certainly considered the IRA and the other lot as not being Christian during the troubles because the actions were secular and not based on the teaching of either the catholic or protestant churches.

    Its also pretty certain that the media has contributed to the lack of condemnation by intimating that those who do speak out may be targeted by the perpetrators.

    Sadly its the ones making the most noise that are noticed and the silent majority get blamed.

    ash
    Old enough to remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous

  10. #50
    Old Hand มือเก่า DavidJohn's Avatar
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    Brilliant!!
    We have consensus between, at least in a small way, IanB, Ash and Davidjohn

  11. #51
    Old Hand มือเก่า Henson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tobias:


    There appears little hesitation to hit the streets of Britain in droves with banners and chants of "death to the British" "death to those who do not support Islam" etc when some cartoons are printed in a Danish newspaper or if a play that they don't particularly like hits the stage. But where are they when bombs planted in the name of Islam kill and maim ? Where is the condemnation then?

    Yes, it's there sometime, and from a certain few ... but it's not nearly enough.
    I agree with this view and it is frustrating to see that the most clerical members of the Muslim community seem more obsessed with the "holy" words of the Quran and any insult towards the prophet than in establishing Islam as a relatively harmonious and non-confrontational element of the societies the religion forms a part of. Judaism managed to adapt to various secular societies around the world and Jewish scholars spent their mental energies trying to adapt the Jewish way of life to changing circumstances - Jews managed to stay true to their faith during thousands or years of not living as a people in one country.

    In Denmark we have had Muslim heroes who unequivocally condemned muslim fanaticism - especially against the few Danish Muslims who toured the Middle East to stir up hatred for the country that housed and fed them - Denmark. One hero who criticised these fundamentalists is Naser Khader - I wish there were a few more like him:

  12. #52
    Old Hand มือเก่า DavidJohn's Avatar
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    Tobias the quote mentioned by Ian was not yours but Marcus's
    see it below:
    So, again, please show me a statement from a mainstream Muslim organisation apologising for the murder, terrorism, violence and threats made in the name of Islam and showing what they are doing to prevent it.

  13. #53
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    Originally posted by IanB:
    No doubt similar methods were used by nazis to damn the jews.
    Are we looking for a "final solution" to the "problem" of muslims in Britain, then?
    The fact is that the attacks on this forum on muslims "they should do this . . they should not do that . . they are part of tghe problem . . . " have direct and clear parallels with both BNP policy and the policies of the nazis against jews.

    People here should just come out into the open: what is YOUR proposed solution to "the muslim problem"?
    Ian, as far as I can you are the only one who has likened comments on here to the Nazi's treatment of the Jews. You are the only one to talk of a 'final solution' and a 'Muslim problem. Nothing anyone else has said could possibly lead a reasonable person to that viewpoint.

    As usual you have gone down the path of making unfounded accusations against those who disagree with you.

    May I suggest that you stop blindly following the looney left line that any criticism of a minority is bad and racist and actually start thinking for yourself?

  14. #54
    Veteran ผู้มีประสบการณ์ db1's Avatar
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    Nick, Dont be silly, that's far to easy for him.
    dont judge me by my past, I dont live there anymore.

    David & Aree

  15. #55
    Premium Member Marcus's Avatar
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    IanB,

    Thank you for the links. And thank you for the report from the Muslim demo against the Glasgow attacks.

    I see you ask if I'd like "another 100 similar reference[s] to overcome your prejudice?"

    Again, I have no idea where this accusation of prejudice comes from.

    Is it prejudiced not not be aware of actions by Muslims against those that commit Islamic terrorism?

    That would be most unfair, especially as, like the report you pasted from the Glasgow demonstration stated, such actions have been previously unheard of:

    Originally quoted by IanB:
    This was quite possibly the first time Muslims had organised anything like this anywhere in the world.
    What worries me, IanB, is that according to the police and MI5 there are thousands of Islamist militants in the UK actively supporting jihadist activities at home and abroad.

    So, you see, I hope that this demo in Glasgow ("possibly the first time Muslims had organised anything like this anywhere in the world") is just the start.

    Because my point remains - with daily violence carried out in the name of Islam and thousands of active British Jihadists living within British Muslim communities - a lot more needs to be done by British Muslims against the jihadists living among them.

    I'm sure you'd agree with that.

  16. #56
    Furniture เฟอร์นิเจอร์ IanB's Avatar
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    May I suggest that you stop blindly following the looney left line that any criticism of a minority is bad and racist and actually start thinking for yourself?
    Nick, I would say the same to you about the right, but I doubt you would understand.

    This thread started with some sad news about yet another attrocity in Thailand. But it was hijacked by Marcus " even in the UK, the Muslim community seems to ignore Muslim violence". I think I have proved this to be a factual error, but that is irrelevant. What interests me is why? Why did he make that mistake? Why did he feel it necessary to comment on British Muslims?

    It is a myth that Muslims do not condemn terrorism. But that myth is propoagated by people with rather nasty motives. When those motives are linked to the earlier debates in which some forum members espoused the view that mixing with other cultures was dangerous for Britain, and you have a very dangerous mix indeed.

    People like Frank Field believe that the presence of immigrants causes racism and causes British people to react with violence. That is the next step in the same argument. His solution is to drastically curtail immigration - including of Thai partners. But his argument leaves open the question of what to do about the immigrants who are already here who are so upsetting Britian's cultural balance. What happens if they breed to fast and threaten the local population in that way?

    In all of these discussions the immigrant community (thats our partners!) are blamed - blamed for upsetting the locals, blamed for not condemning terrorism, blamed for caliming benefits (yes, we've had that one on this forum several times), blamed because they have not integrated enough, blamed for taking people's homes and jobs, blamed for damaging the economy.

    Can you really not see the lniks and dangers in these arguments? There was nothing special or unique about the Germans. Human beings have a remarkable cap[acity for evil, and blame and hatred of immigrants (or people from different tribes) often results in horror and attrocities. I don't think there is anything special in this country to say it couldn't happen here.

    Raciam does not start with jack booted thugs, it starts with prejudice and then moves on to resentment and then on to hatred. Prejudice is pretty much defined by a statement such as "even in the UK, the Muslim community seems to ignore Muslim violence", or "There appears little hesitation to hit the streets of Britain in droves with banners and chants of "death to the British" "death to those who do not support Islam" ".

    AS the poster of that second comment was fully aware, on ONE demonstartion ONE person unfurled a banner of that type. He was arrested and prosecuted.

  17. #57
    Premium Member -Keith-'s Avatar
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    AS the poster of that second comment was fully aware, on ONE demonstartion ONE person unfurled a banner of that type. He was arrested and prosecuted.
    Ian you really do spout a load of garbage sometimes.

    If you're offended by any assistance I give, it says far more about you than it does me.

  18. #58
    Old Hand มือเก่า Henson's Avatar
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    IanB,

    I have to congratulate you for being a totally unapologetic looney leftie.

    Sadly, I believe that if people like you were in charge and forced multicultural brainwashing on the British public - outlawing any sort of criticism of Islam - your best friends would soon be all the Mullahs and Imams who want to see their own view of society enacted here. If you're in doubt about how that society would look you should have watched the documentary that was on BBC2 yesterday on the Saudi Arabian theocratic rule.

    You are living in the past - and your ignorant referrals to Nazism shows how little you understand about history. Only looney lefties truly believe that Nazism can return to Western countries, and they usually bring up that ghost as a slur against their opponents when they have no other arguments.

    Nazism was rooted in a country that had endured massive economic hardship, dire humiliation, uneducated peasants forced into modernization and a significant proportion of the population who had desperate living conditions and cried out for a change.

    No one believes that the West has or will have these social prerequisites for a revitalised nazism - but what you fail to recognise is that the Middle East and the Muslim diaspora in the West are far more likely to spawn some evil akin to nazism.

    What you see in this thread is really concerned liberals who do not want to see society blackmailed by dark individuals and thoughts with their root in the Middle Ages. What is sad about the West at present is that our response to this threat is so muted and feeble. That is partly because looney lefties like yourself try to make Westerners feel ashamed of defending themselves and make great efforts to totally emasculate the Western world. Meanwhile, the Muslim fundamentalists thrive on this weakness and Western guilt about racism etc.

    Anyways, I am sure that IanB will always see things through his amazingly thickly prejudiced spectacles - it is just funny how much of a caricature you are by being so uncompromising.

  19. #59
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Originally posted by -Keith-:
    Ian you really do spout a load of garbage sometimes.
    Indeed. The latest instalment from IanB is again full of diatribe.

    Ian, I do sometimes think you live in a different reality to the rest of us. I'm not sure whether or not you actually believe what you write; a significant portion of it is clearly void of fact and often coupled with distorted logic.

    In a previous discussion, rolyshark referred to the word 'sophistry', it appears to me that you are fast becoming an expert in it.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    If you want to know where I am, follow me on my Thailand-UK Blog.

  20. #60
    Premium Member ash's Avatar
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    May I suggest that you stop blindly following the looney left line that any criticism of a minority is bad and racist and actually start thinking for yourself?
    That would have a pre-requisite of having a working brain
    Old enough to remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous

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