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Harvey at home
4th Jun 2009, 09:58
Just got the link at last to Sterling learning course for the issue of ILR or citizenship applications;

www.info@sterlinglearning.com (http://www.info@sterlinglearning.com).
Regards Harvey

BigRed
4th Jun 2009, 13:38
This looks well dodgy. No landline contact number, no real course details, no prices, no course schedule.

Lee
4th Jun 2009, 14:23
No landline contact number,

Contact details are there in the Contact Us (http://sterlinglearning.wordpress.com/contact-us/) section.

Lee

BigRed
4th Jun 2009, 14:48
Contact details are there in the Contact Us section.


yes,but it is a mobile

peterinkendal
4th Jun 2009, 15:09
you need to prove that you have ILR before you can register....❇❇❇????

http://sterlinglearning.wordpr...ration-requirements/ (http://sterlinglearning.wordpress.com/registration-requirements/)

...and no course dates

Harvey at home
4th Jun 2009, 15:34
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
you need to prove that you have ILR before you can register....❇❇❇????

http://sterlinglearning.wordpr...ration-requirements/ (http://sterlinglearning.wordpress.com/registration-requirements/)

...and no course dates

The course you are looking at is the citizenship course and not the ESOL course. Possibly for those who have previously gained an ILR prior to the requirements of the Life in the Uk test rules

Harvey at home
4th Jun 2009, 15:36
Originally posted by BigRed:
This looks well dodgy. No landline contact number, no real course details, no prices, no course schedule.


Sterling Learning
YCA Centre
119 Liverpool Rd
Eccles, Manchester
M30 OND

Telephone: 07846 57 1147
Fax: 0161 283 8496
E-mail: info@sterlinglearning.com


Tell Gary that,He and Nok used this company and then gained ILR Visa.
Check Peter in Kendals post!

BigRed
4th Jun 2009, 15:51
^

so which bit of my post is wrong then? BTW where is Birmingham mentioned?


Tell Gary that,He and Nok used this company and then gained ILR Visa.
Check Peter in Kendals post!

They obviously didn't do this one then, it requires an ILR as a pre-requisite. All I'm saying is that the website leaves a lot of questions unanswered and people should think about it.

Merseymike
4th Jun 2009, 16:39
When new laws are introduced, there are some folk who will do their damnedest to circumvent them, and this breeds a new type of near-the-knuckle entrepreneur. I am no lover of the "knowledge of life in the UK" qualification, but if that's a legal requirement, then that's what we have to live with until it may be changed.

As an immigration adviser, I would not counsel anyone to undertake a course at such a school, but, hey-ho, each to their own: you pays yer money and takes yer choice.

In saying that, I don't wish to derogate from the "success" of those who may have attended the afore-mentioned "educational establishment", but if others were to fail, having attended the same school, it wouldn't be too surprising.

KhunIanB-UK
4th Jun 2009, 16:56
There was debate on this course before in another thread and looks like it does circumvent the potentially time consuming and possibly very costly normal route that would be needed. I had my extreme doubts in the previous thread, but they were proved wrong and congratulations to those that make a stumbling block easier and more convenient.

I think it is a great idea that anyone living here has an understanding of English and hence make life easier for them and those around them so can't complain about policy on this, luckily for us Aom's courses were subsidised and creche facilites. How things have changed since then though.

Gary & Nok
5th Jun 2009, 01:00
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
Tell Gary that,He and Nok used this company and then gained ILR Visa.
I can categorically confirm that I did NOT use this company and do not know anything about them.

The company I (Nok) used was Cohesion Legal Services Centre (http://www120.learndirect-advice-search.co.uk/pls/hotufi2/aff_hc_search.adv_post_do?x=819101405911&y=0&a=260405&search_what=O&phrase_search=Esol%20%2B%20Citizenship&college_name=COHESION%20LEGAL%20SERVICES%20CENTRE%20LTD&town_city=&location_id=&postcode=B14%205DF&distance=8&qualification=&study_mode=A1,A2,A21,A22,A3,A4,A23,A5&z=114904&s_type=Z&duration=&start_date=&chkflexistart=N&search_category=&town_loc_id=&learneraccount=N&chkfixedvenues=&p_region=) as taken from the Government website.

The certificate received was from one of the “required” checking bodies and this has been sufficient for Nok to obtain her ILR and in the process of applying for her citizenship.

I first posted about this company here (http://thailand-uk.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/85010002/m/2961016033?r=4221028033#4221028033)

Harvey at home
5th Jun 2009, 01:01
Hello Ian

Thanks for your Refreshing point of view. For a change I am not minded to get into any more debate on this subject but I will say this and then retire to my flu intensive misery.

This," NOT" near the knuckle company is complying with the law and is working with EDEXEL who are authorised by the UKBA to give examinations and the current certificate that is required as an alternative to the full or Part ESOL course system or the life in the UK test.

This quallification from EDEXEL is only one of the three lawful ways to gain that pass certificate that says you have complied with the education, knowledge and citizenship content this is required to obtain an ILR Visa and consequentely citizenship.

Regards Harvey

Harvey at home
5th Jun 2009, 02:51
Originally posted by Gary & Nok:

Originally posted by Harvey at home:
Tell Gary that,He and Nok used this company and then gained ILR Visa.
I can categorically confirm that I did NOT use this company and do not know anything about them.

The company I (Nok) used was Cohesion Legal Services Centre (http://www120.learndirect-advice-search.co.uk/pls/hotufi2/aff_hc_search.adv_post_do?x=819101405911&y=0&a=260405&search_what=O&phrase_search=Esol%20%2B%20Citizenship&college_name=COHESION%20LEGAL%20SERVICES%20CENTRE%20LTD&town_city=&location_id=&postcode=B14%205DF&distance=8&qualification=&study_mode=A1,A2,A21,A22,A3,A4,A23,A5&z=114904&s_type=Z&duration=&start_date=&chkflexistart=N&search_category=&town_loc_id=&learneraccount=N&chkfixedvenues=&p_region=) as taken from the Government website.

The certificate received was from one of the “required” checking bodies and this has been sufficient for Nok to obtain her ILR and in the process of applying for her citizenship.

I first posted about this company here (http://thailand-uk.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/85010002/m/2961016033?r=4221028033#4221028033)


UNRESERVED
appolgies Gary It is my fault I got it wrong , never the less the company in question does use one of the Adjudicators that you describe in your post as "Required"== EDEXEL.

I am now waiting for a response to an email that I have sent asking the Manager who he was referring to when I mentioned you and Noks name and he said He remembered you.

Now For those who have a living to make and find it hard to undertake a three day or indeed full time ESOL course and the loss of wages that you go along with it and further who do not have the "nouse" to learn by rote or the intellect to learn all the potential questions in the "life in the UK test", these short course are a God send and are fully within the law and spirit of having some knowledge of the English way of life and language.

For a start applicants for these short courses have to undertake an assement and if they fail that assessment cannot be allowed to undertake the course.

So where have people got the idea these courses are anything but acceptible and within the current legal proccess and therefor acceptible to the UKBA both for the issue of the ILR Visa and also Citizenship?

Is there a moral issue here that I am missing, indeed where is the circumventing of any law?


Regards Harvey

BigRed
5th Jun 2009, 06:44
when I mentioned you and Noks name and he said He remembered you.

:lol:

ddwjg
5th Jun 2009, 09:01
Harvey, I'm not sure why people have drawn you into a debate on this. You have tried to help forum members and guests by posting a link to a possibly useful course. Good on you.It is now up to the individual to find out more.

You don't need to defend this course. Your o/p did nothing to promote this course. Only tell of its existance.

You are posting like every criticism of their website is a personal affront to yourself. It is forum members' prerogative to comment on the website, and the course.

Dave.

Harvey at home
5th Jun 2009, 09:28
Originally posted by ddwjg:
Harvey, I'm not sure why people have drawn you into a debate on this. You have tried to help forum members and guests by posting a link to a possibly useful course. Good on you.It is now up to the individual to find out more.

You don't need to defend this course. Your o/p did nothing to promote this course. Only tell of its existance.

You are posting like every criticism of their website is a personal affront to yourself. It is forum members' prerogative to comment on the website, and the course.

Dave.

Hello Dave and thanks for your kind comments.....


Regards Harvey

Sterling Learning
5th Jun 2009, 09:50
"If you are not an English speaker, you will need to take and pass an English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) course which contains citizenship materials. To check your language ability, you should work through the tutorial on the Life in the UK test website. If you cannot fully understand the information in this tutorial, you may need to take a course in English and citizenship." (source UKBA site).
I would like to draw Merseymike to the above extract from the new rules. it is not circumventing the rules but part of the "new requirement". Sterling Learning offer short course which includes citizenship materials derived from the document 'Citizenship Materials for ESOL Learners'. We can be contacted by phone 0795 4433640, fax 0161 283 8496 or email info@sterlinglearning.com alternatively through the Directgov website for ESOL courses in Manchester.

Sterling Learning
5th Jun 2009, 09:53
Harvey, my mistake it was Ian & Sopar from Warrington who attended the course at our Manchester centre. Apologies for the mix up.

Wolfy
5th Jun 2009, 11:13
Sterling Learning


Harvey, my mistake it was Ian & Sopar from Warrington who attended the course at our Manchester centre. Apologies for the mix up.

Ian and Sopar from Warrington, ah yes,that does sound similar to Gary and Nok from Birmingham. :D Poor old Harvey you put him in a right pickle :lol:

Wolfy
5th Jun 2009, 11:20
Merseymike (Quote)

When new laws are introduced, there are some folk who will do their damnedest to circumvent them, and this breeds a new type of near-the-knuckle entrepreneur.

Sterling Learning


I would like to draw Merseymike to the above extract from the new rules. it is not circumventing the rules but part of the "new requirement".

Merseymike - a near the knuckle new type of immigration advisor, always has an answer for everything even when he's wrong :D

BigRed
5th Jun 2009, 16:08
You don't need to defend this course. Your o/p did nothing to promote this course. Only tell of its existance.

Exactly. I wasn't commenting on you at all. I'm not even criticising the course, because I know nothing about it, just noting that there is a lack of details on the website and finding it unusual that there isn't a full time secretary with a landline for enquiries. These seem good reasons to urge caution.

I should have thanked you for the link but omitted it.

Now Stirling are members perhaps they can provide more detail, such as costs, dates, success rates, testimonials. Perhaps they could explain why they require applicants to have an ILR, which seems to limit their customer base now that the ESOL with Citizenship is a prerequisite for an ILR.

I still have an open mind on this one but I would need more details before parting with cash.

Speaking of cash, I must go now to reply to my new Nigerian acquaintance who has a good business opportunity for me ;)

KhunIanB-UK
5th Jun 2009, 18:13
and they can get good advice on improving their website from member's feedback here too :)

Harvey at home
6th Jun 2009, 01:27
Positivity at last!

Thanks for your posts and yes we will see what we will see but from my personal perspective and knowledge of this company through visiting their premises and talking to their manager I am happy to part with my money especially if it helps Wan and I and also helps those people caught up in the void or null area that was the basis for my original post.( Wan needing a certificate that she had already earned but because of the beurocratic rigidity of the college involved could not have got that certificate until after it was too late to send it with the application and would have had to incur more expence in applying for a FLR visa until she had the ESOL cert and then to apply once more for the ILR Visa.

I wish we had known more about this short course before we started the longwinded ESOL course. Which obviously has virtue if you want to do that type of thing but Wan and I and I suspect most of the other people in the Visa application proccess only wanted the peice of paper that would have quallified them in thier application for the issue of the ILR Visa.

Further the extra visa (FLR) would have cost £465 but there is another kick in applying for this visa and that is that if I have read the rules correctly applicants for the FLR visa must also have the " Immigrant ID card" and this must also be paid for at a cost of £165. So the extra cost in not having the ESOL cert and going for the issue of the FLR visa would be £630 plus then the cost of the ILR another £820 or if though an appointment £1020.
The five day course with Sterling learning cost £200 including, assessment course and exam seems a more acceptible way of gaining the ILR visa than any other avenue

On more than one post I have said that I will not debate politics so I will not do so in respect of the rules on Immigration, however I feel that I must say some thing on the attitude by certain posters on this topic who should know better than to pontificate and be judgemental, expressed in an "Holier than thou attitude" on any legally acceptible way to avoid the exhorbitantly profit loaded heavy legal proccess in aquiring the legal right to marry a partner of a different Ethnic origin and reside peacefully in their own country.

The Visa application hoops these days are NOT the same as those of yesterday and those making application now have to have the tenacity of a pit bull terrier, the patience of job and the bottomless pockets of the UK treasury.
So please gentlemen lets have some understanding of why people would go the way of a perfectly Legal, moral and quick way to acheive the ILR visa through genuine companies like Sterling Learning or Cohesion etc.

Regards Harvey

ddwjg
6th Jun 2009, 02:14
Now Stirling are members perhaps they can provide more detail, such as costs, dates, success rates, testimonials. Perhaps they could explain why they require applicants to have an ILR, which seems to limit their customer base now that the ESOL with Citizenship is a prerequisite for an ILR.

I still have an open mind on this one but I would need more details before parting with cash.

I hope Sterling do come back, as there are a lot of people that require this information. Why not sponsor this forum. You could gain a lot of custom by doing so.

Dave.

Lee
6th Jun 2009, 02:23
Why not sponsor this forum. You could gain a lot of custom by doing so.

We are in the process of setting up forum sponsorship with Sterling learning.

Thanks
Lee

peterinkendal
6th Jun 2009, 02:37
well this seems a great way of getting the required qualification for ILR. My only note of caution was born about being taught from a young age that if something sounds too good to be true then it usually is!

With a forum recommendation, I would have no hesitation in paying 200 quid in order to get the necessary qualification and only wish I knew about this before we want through the painful way of LITUK test.

Harvey, please let us know how you get on with this course, I am sure there are many people very interested.

Harvey at home
6th Jun 2009, 03:01
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
well this seems a great way of getting the required qualification for ILR. My only note of caution was born about being taught from a young age that if something sounds too good to be true then it usually is!

With a forum recommendation, I would have no hesitation in paying 200 quid in order to get the necessary qualification and only wish I knew about this before we want through the painful way of LITUK test.
Harvey, please let us know how you get on with this course, I am sure there are many people very interested.

No probs Pete

Whilst I am still working on getting the certificate from the ESOL course that Wan attended and gained in time for the ILR application I have reserved a place ot Sterling Learnings Manchester course on the 15th of this month as a last resort.

However like you I wish that I had known about this course before.

My main reason for supporting this company is because of our own experiences with the requirement.

For the record whilst I was waiting to see the manager when I visited their company recently, there were a number of people who had completed this course collecting certificates.
This was entirel coincidental and gave me positive proof that Sterling Learning were doing exactly what they said they would do in delivering the goods, namely a UKBA accredited ( EDEXEL) course that will enable Wan to get her ILR Visa.

Regards Harvey

Wolfy
6th Jun 2009, 04:57
Harvey said


For the record whilst I was waiting to see the manager when I visited their company recently, there were a number of people who had completed this course collecting certificates.

Be careful Harvey, some people on here would suspect these people of being "plants" collecting "bogus" Certificates just to fool you !! :D

Harvey at home
6th Jun 2009, 06:30
Reply

Lee


Posted 06 June 2009 08:23 Hide Post
quote:
Why not sponsor this forum. You could gain a lot of custom by doing so.


We are in the process of setting up forum sponsorship with Sterling learning.

Thanks
Lee



GREAT NEWS!!!!!!

More power to the elbow of this great forum.
That it has taken on board some thing that will make one hell of a lot easier the application procedure for the ILR visa in cutting down the time and expence asscoiated with the Life in the UK test or the alternative qualification for the issue of the ILR Visa or citizenship.

The more people who know about this type of short "Oral" course the better, especailly if it takes away the monopoly that the colleges have been enjoying.

Since all this talk about these courses I have thought why do the colleges who do the normal type of ESOL course not give the short course offered by Sterling Learning?

Could it be that they want the full course fee and full classes that goes with a year long course and have ignored the short course in pure self interest?

I was talking to a person who works within a college in this sector who said that the drop off from the ESOL course after people had completed enough of the ESOL course to quallify for the issue of the visa, and never came back to carry on with their course. would justify a short course dedicated to those with Visa needs only.

In other words and in general the visa applicants who were on the course only wanted to do the minimum required for the issue of the cerificate needed for the visa. That would be a covering letter, together with a certificate that they had progressed one level and that they had also had citizenship content within the course itself.

This knowledge in itself would have shown the colleges that there indeed there was a need for the short course that was acceptible to the UKBA

The home office and UKBA obviously saw a need for this type of course that companies like Sterling and others are doing, I ask again why not the big colleges?

More to the point why did the Experts in this field, The immigration Lawyers, immigration advisors, CAB's not know about these short courses?
Seems to me there is a big knowledge vacuum in this area that would have been of serious and immense value to those contemplating an ILR rather than the FLR visa which most people in their ignorence of the short course and its massive value, thought was their only option!

Iwonder how many people who are now holding FLR visa's. who having been properly advised of this short course would now be holding ILR visa's and waiting to apply for their citizenship instead of like Wan and I waiting for a once a year issue of a certificate?

If I sound cynical it is because after talking to many immigration laywers , and immigration advisors who treated my knowledge of these companies when I mentioned their veracity to them as some kind of devious attempt to circumvent the ILR application proccess and further added injury by implying that the companies who offered this genuine alternative to ESOL run colleges or the Life in the UK test as near the bone, the implication being that they were borderline illegal!



Regards Harvey

Sterling Learning
6th Jun 2009, 08:16
quote:
Now Stirling are members perhaps they can provide more detail, such as costs, dates, success rates, testimonials. Perhaps they could explain why they require applicants to have an ILR, which seems to limit their customer base now that the ESOL with Citizenship is a prerequisite for an ILR.

"Knowledge of language and life in the United Kingdom for non-English speakers.If you do not have English skills at ESOL Entry 3 or above, you must take an ESOL course to demonstrate your knowledge of language and life in the United Kingdom.The course you take must include citizenship materials, so that you you can gain sufficient knowledge of the United Kingdom at the same time as developing your knowledge of the English language. When you apply for settlement, you will need to provide evidence that you have moved up from one ESOL level to the next".(source UKBA website)

The applicants do not require ILR as a pre requisite for attending the course but it is the other way round. Courses are run every week, it costs £200 per course this comprises assessment, tuition and examination fee. Candidate success rate with Sterling Learning is 94%. In case of a student failing their test they can resit the test after a period of 2 weeks at no additional cost. Testimonials are available on request. A landline no.
0161 283 8496 has the facility of taking messages from all prospective students for any information they require. Calls are returned within 24 hours.

We are in the process of setting up forum sponsorship.

BigRed
6th Jun 2009, 12:22
^

That's more like it!

If you got your website updated it would be a lot better. Your registration requirements do say:


3. Proof of indefinite leave to remain in the UK

Your calendar looks ok but doesn't show any events on it, only links back to February, then doesn't link forwards again.

Your 'Contact Us' page has a link to google maps, which is spoilt by using an O instead of a 0, so it doesn't show the location properly.

Maybe you could get your site redesigned by some-one on here, the basic design is ok, just the content is lacking. Throw in a news page with pictures of a group of happy students collecting their certificates and the job is done.

You could try advertising at the local Thai Temple in Cheltenham Street, Salford, it is only down the road.

Wolfy
7th Jun 2009, 03:25
<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">To Sterling Learning:[/color]

Hope you remember to "reward" our Harvey for all his input,he went to great lengths championing your service.

What about making him your Advertising Executive Director ??

Seriously without his help a lot of folks on here would have never heard of you !

Regards Greenheathen :nod:

Sterling Learning
7th Jun 2009, 03:41
Thank you for all your suggestions. Kindly keep them coming.

macduff
7th Jun 2009, 06:38
Maybe Merseymike could do a latin version and a welsh version for all his knowledgeable followers :)

Wolfy
7th Jun 2009, 10:53
macduff

Maybe Merseymike could do a latin version and a welsh version for all his knowledgeable followers

I like you macduff, a normal everyday Thai loving person with a sense of humour.

Merseymike
10th Jun 2009, 15:29
Originally posted by Greenheathen:
Merseymike - a near the knuckle new type of immigration advisor, always has an answer for everything even when he's wrong :D

Time will tell, Greenie, time will tell. :D

Merseymike
10th Jun 2009, 17:30
Originally posted by macduff:
Maybe Merseymike could do a latin version and a welsh version for all his knowledgeable followers :)

Excellent point! You're evidently aware that one may also achieve the Knowledge of Life in the UK requirement in either Welsh or Scottish Gaelic - Patagonian, too, but that's slid off the law book.

Anyway, there's an opening for those Welsh- and Gaelic-speaking members who wish to hold an intensive one-week course, in either language, that 94% of participants pass.

macduff
11th Jun 2009, 11:34
Originally posted by Merseymike:

Originally posted by macduff:
Maybe Merseymike could do a latin version and a welsh version for all his knowledgeable followers :)

Excellent point! You're evidently aware that one may also achieve the Knowledge of Life in the UK requirement in either Welsh or Scottish Gaelic - Patagonian, too, but that's slid off the law book.

Anyway, there's an opening for those Welsh- and Gaelic-speaking members who wish to hold an intensive one-week course, in either language, that 94% of participants pass. Merseymike you are a mind of information.
Merseymike it may be best to leave it there :thumb:

Gary & Nok
12th Jun 2009, 01:15
Harvey, sorry but my post (a long while ago) did not mean to come across as a put down, only to point out that it was not us. No offence taken on my part and hopefully none on yours :shake:

As for this type of course, it's fine for all those to say it's bogus, shortcutting or whatever but if it is following the government rules and guidelines then what is wrong with that :shrug:

Why put your better half through weeks and weeks of hard work at college (not to mention the cost :mad:) when this course or the one at Cohesion Legal Services Centre can do the job for a fraction of the time and cost.

I am sure that if these were not legit it would have been picked up at the time of Nok’s (and the hundreds that have already done the course) ILR visa process.

Is it jealousy on MerseyMike’s part that he did not come up with the idea of doing this and is therefore missing out on a lot of money for his company? :nod:

Harvey at home
12th Jun 2009, 16:19
Originally posted by Gary & Nok:
Harvey, sorry but my post (a long while ago) did not mean to come across as a put down, only to point out that it was not us. No offence taken on my part and hopefully none on yours :shake:

As for this type of course, it's fine for all those to say it's bogus, shortcutting or whatever but if it is following the government rules and guidelines then what is wrong with that :shrug:

Why put your better half through weeks and weeks of hard work at college (not to mention the cost :mad:) when this course or the one at Cohesion Legal Services Centre can do the job for a fraction of the time and cost.

I am sure that if these were not legit it would have been picked up at the time of Nok’s (and the hundreds that have already done the course) ILR visa process.

Is it jealousy on MerseyMike’s part that he did not come up with the idea of doing this and is therefore missing out on a lot of money for his company? :nod:

Hello Gary

Completely agree with you and cannot understand why anyone would want to cast derision or doubt when it is as you say perfectly legit!
Wan will be starting her course with "Sterling learning" on Monday next, the only ball acher is that I have to take her to the course which is at the other end of the M60 at a time in the morning when it is "Madness" on that motorway.
Its especailly maddening when you consider that Wan has completed the same thing in her ESOL with the local college and they cannot let her have a copy of the certificate that says she has already passed.
They did give her a letter saying she has passed but that is not enough for those people in the UKBA!

There is no point in getting upset about it but this country has gone mad and we have gone mad with it, because we let it happen, We British are appathetic.

Anything that is legal and above board than can "Circumvent the stupid and point less ESOL beurocracy is fine by me anmd that applies to anything concerned with the gratuitosly expensive mindless and ill thought out Visa procedures, which in any event are shutting the stable door when the horse has already gone.

Where Mersey is concerned I really do not have a problem with him, He has been very helpful to me and no doubt to many others, however I do not know if He is married to a Thai lady but in any event like a lot of other people on this forum He may well have got Visa's when they were relatively easy and inexpensive and does not understand that for a lot of people these uneeded ESOL courses are a waste of time and money when the person could be out using that time to maintain solvency without using Public funds.

If this nonsense goes on it will only be the rich and wealthy who can afford to marry a person that is from another Ethnic culture and those who denigrate the short 5 day course should maybe think again and examine their reasons for doing so.

Regards Harvey

Wolfy
12th Jun 2009, 16:32
Harvey said:


There is no point in getting upset about it but this country has gone mad and we have gone mad with it, because we let it happen, We British are apathetic.

There are so many things in your post that i totally agree with, one of them above. I dread to think what this country will be like in 30 years time when my daughter reaches the age of 40.

Also, having had an office in Rochdale, I know exactly what you mean about the Motorway, I used to stay at the Holiday Inn Express next to the Reebok and if I didn't leave there early it was a chuffin nightmare.

Hope you are feeling a bit better now Harvey :thumb:

Merseymike
12th Jun 2009, 18:32
I think that, largely, the point I was trying to make has been missed. I do not necessarily have an objection to firms operating within the law, albeit not within the spirit.

My fear is that once it becomes apparent to the powers-that-be that someone can obtain a pass certificate in whichever course of study after one week's attendance, then the entire shooting match is, not only devoid of value, but will be made that much harder. In other words, what may be perceived as a short-term gain is a long-term loss.

A requirement of the law (like it or not) is that people progress from one level to the next. If they can do that within the space of one week, they must all be geniuses.

John
13th Jun 2009, 01:09
Mike, I fully agree that if inaccurate testing was involved, at the beginning and end of the course, that would be very wrong.

But if the course is conducted properly, and in a one-week full-time period the person does progress from one ESOL level to the next, I see no problem at all that they have done their studies compacted into one week full-time, rather than a couple of hours a week part-time.

However I do think there is an inherent problem here in concept terms. That is, the person needs to be tested at the beginning of the course, be it full-time or part-time, in order to measure if progress has been made. But I think it would be all too easy for someone to, well, let's say under-perform in that initial test. And if that happens they might end up with the completion certificate they seek without actually making any progress at all.

That I think is a far bigger issue than whether the course is part-time spread over many weeks, or just one week full-time.

macduff
13th Jun 2009, 07:04
Originally posted by John:
Mike, I fully agree that if inaccurate testing was involved, at the beginning and end of the course, that would be very wrong.

But if the course is conducted properly, and in a one-week full-time period the person does progress from one ESOL level to the next, I see no problem at all that they have done their studies compacted into one week full-time, rather than a couple of hours a week part-time.

However I do think there is an inherent problem here in concept terms. That is, the person needs to be tested at the beginning of the course, be it full-time or part-time, in order to measure if progress has been made. But I think it would be all too easy for someone to, well, let's say under-perform in that initial test. And if that happens they might end up with the completion certificate they seek without actually making any progress at all.

That I think is a far bigger issue than whether the course is part-time spread over many weeks, or just one week full-time.

John and Mike. I read your comments and fully understand the direction your going but before this 1 week course was initially first started my wife was accepted at college to do a night school course which is 2 nights a week 2 hours per night all in a written format as you'd expect. Now the college asseses you in the interview everyone has before you actually sit in a classroom.I was with my wife when the interview was taking place.

question 1 Can you speak English?
question 2 Can you read English?
Question 3 Can you Write English?

The point i'm trying to make is you can lie on question 2 and 3 but not on the first question.There's nothing to stop you starting off at the bottom level when in fact you can read and write therefore giving you a good start in your first term at college and a guaranteed pass at the end.

The 1 week course is quite different.Your learning how to converse with the general public by role playing and your given tasks in how to conduct yourself in everyday situations such as making appointments arranging times,asking for items of clothing from shops,ordering food from cafe's and so on.More or less everything we do when we go out without writing anything.You do have to understand English very well of course to achieve your certificate at the end but as a timescale compared with colleges it's more convienient and less costly for us with having a baby to look after.

Harvey at home
13th Jun 2009, 11:49
Quote from John.


However I do think there is an inherent problem here in concept terms. That is, the person needs to be tested at the beginning of the course, be it full-time or part-time, in order to measure if progress has been made. But I think it would be all too easy for someone to, well, let's say under-perform in that initial test. And if that happens they might end up with the completion certificate they seek without actually making any progress at all.

This course in not intended to replace the LITUK test or to detract those who wish to do an ESOL course from going down that road

The course is intended for those who have already a basic knowledge of the English language who can understand what others may say to them and who can make themselves understood.

Any applicant for this course must undergo an " Assessment" so that if they do not have an adequate basic knowledge of communication in the English language they will not be able to attend the course.

The examination at the end of the course is carried out by a Quallified examiner of EDEXEL, who are one of those adjudicators authorised by the Home office and the UKBA to carry out these "Examinations" and issue a certificate.

Harvey

John
13th Jun 2009, 14:58
OK, so those running the course are looking for a certain level before accepting someone on the course, but still possible I suspect that someone who is at say ESOL Entry Level 3 to make out that they are only at ESOL Entry Level 2.

Bryn&Mot
13th Jun 2009, 17:19
My fear is that once it becomes apparent to the powers-that-be that someone can obtain a pass certificate in whichever course of study after one week's attendance, then the entire shooting match is, not only devoid of value, but will be made that much harder.

I agree,

I remember when a letter from a "Notery" was good enough to fulfil the English language part of becoming a British Citizen, one that I, at that time took full advantage of, and for the cost of £50.00, Mot soon was a British citizen, although she could not (as the rules at that time stated)" speak English to that of a native English speaker "
I wonder how many went down this short cut route ? and if it is the reason why now this shortcut has been withdrawn.

Get it while you can,is my advice.

Harvey at home
14th Jun 2009, 01:42
Originally posted by John:
OK, so those running the course are looking for a certain level before accepting someone on the course, but still possible I suspect that someone who is at say ESOL Entry Level 3 to make out that they are only at ESOL Entry Level 2.

I am finding it difficult to understand your point.
The reason for the Assessment is purely so that those who do not have a basic or fundamental understanding of orally communicationg in the English language will not only not understand the course but would be unable to pass the Oral test at the end of the course.
Progression from one level to another, in this repect is not relevent to the course.
Harvey

macduff
14th Jun 2009, 02:15
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

Originally posted by John:
OK, so those running the course are looking for a certain level before accepting someone on the course, but still possible I suspect that someone who is at say ESOL Entry Level 3 to make out that they are only at ESOL Entry Level 2.

I am finding it difficult to understand your point.
The reason for the Assessment is purely so that those who do not have a basic or fundamental understanding of orally communicationg in the English language will not only not understand the course but would be unable to pass the Oral test at the end of the course.
Progression from one level to another, in this repect is not relevent to the course.
Harvey

I think john is refering to the college assessment not the 1 week intensive course at cohesion or sterling.The Thai or foreigner must have some sort of English dialect to communicate i would have thought.

Harvey at home
14th Jun 2009, 05:07
Hello Macduff

I think that John is referring to the The short course. He says, Quote;

"OK, so those running the course are looking for a certain level before accepting someone on the course"

Assessments for ESOL are only intended to grade and not determin whether the student can indeed go on the course. The ESOL course caters for any level of knowledge for entry to it.

However this is not the same as the assessment for the short 5 day course which would determine if the would be student could go on the course in the first place.

Regards Harvey

macduff
14th Jun 2009, 05:15
Harvey please read my previous posts above on the subject

Thanks

Harvey at home
14th Jun 2009, 06:01
Soory if I got it wrong Mac

Regards Harvey

Harvey at home
14th Jun 2009, 06:03
Just realised that my sorry was spelt wrong. I did not do it on purpose but then thought "Macduff" it could be that it sounds like the way the a Scot would say it in the venacular. ;)

macduff
14th Jun 2009, 06:09
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
Just realised that my sorry was spelt wrong. I did not do it on purpose but then thought "Macduff" it could be that it sounds like the way the a Scot would say it in the venacular. ;)

Och eye tha nooo Harvey :thumb:

John
15th Jun 2009, 02:59
I think that John is referring to the The short course.

Actually I am referring to the course, of whatever length.

The point is that it is possible for the person to under-perform when being tested at the start of the course, and that is a real problem, given the need to progress from one level to the next, before a completion certificate can be issued for a combined ESOL/Citizenship course.

macduff
15th Jun 2009, 12:32
Originally posted by John:

I think that John is referring to the The short course.

Actually I am referring to the course, of whatever length.

The point is that it is possible for the person to under-perform when being tested at the start of the course, and that is a real problem, given the need to progress from one level to the next, before a completion certificate can be issued for a combined ESOL/Citizenship course.

Hi john. Actually my wife has been attending the 5 day course and theres no way you can under achieve to gain. It is a speaking and understanding/ listening course as i've mentioned before. You are told of the tasks to perform.You cannot play dum on the first couple of days and then get better.As i've mentioned before in my previous posts you can certainly pull the wool over in the college course but not on the 5 day course. It is of no interest to the foreigner to (under perform) as you've put it john on the 5 day course.The certificate and letter from the 5 day course is the minimum requirement needed to get LLR/FLR/ILR/citizenship

Harvey at home
15th Jun 2009, 13:34
People who should be aware, very much more so then us mere punters and I do refer to the immigration experts and advisors who have posted and cast doubts on this course, who obviously are totally ignorent about this legally above board and morally ethical short course. Should by now have fully researched the legallity, reason for and effect on those of us who are so greatly affected by the use of this avenue to the issue of an ILR Visa.If not for us who are posting but for the benefit of their future clients who may need advice on the benefits of the short course and least have the choices explained to them by an expert of an alternative to the LITUK Test or long winded ESOL course via that bastion of learning the local college.

I am now of a mind to stop my imput into this post because by now I would have expected that those same experts would have researched this course, its legallity and its reson detra and then given us the benefit of their expert opinion.

Instead of that they continue to waffle.

That they still continue to doubt the veracity of those who have actually completed the course and have then subsequentely received ILR on the strenght of that course make no difference to their opinions.

They make me think that as usual because they consider themselves "Expert" they cannot be wrong and because they don't know about it then it does not exist and because they have an "Opinion" that is that there must be some thing odd or illegal and when the authorites find out about this obvious loophole then it will all be stopped is amking me feel sick!!!
For those experts who have remained "quiet" on this subject I beg your pardon for my directness but for those who the cap fits please research your line of expertness and then post straight and direct resposnes that make your opinions worthy of that of an expert.

Regards Harvey

peterinkendal
15th Jun 2009, 14:33
Originally posted by macduff:

Originally posted by John:

I think that John is referring to the The short course.

Actually I am referring to the course, of whatever length.

The point is that it is possible for the person to under-perform when being tested at the start of the course, and that is a real problem, given the need to progress from one level to the next, before a completion certificate can be issued for a combined ESOL/Citizenship course.

Hi john. Actually my wife has been attending the 5 day course and theres no way you can under achieve to gain. It is a speaking and understanding/ listening course as i've mentioned before. You are told of the tasks to perform.You cannot play dum on the first couple of days and then get better.As i've mentioned before in my previous posts you can certainly pull the wool over in the college course but not on the 5 day course. It is of no interest to the foreigner to (under perform) as you've put it john on the 5 day course.The certificate and letter from the 5 day course is the minimum requirement needed to get LLR/FLR/ILR/citizenship


I think that john's point is that in order to qualify for exemption from the lituk test it is not sufficient to merely pass the test at the end of the 5 days, but that you show an advancement in your esol level, eg. from entry level 2 to entry entry level 3. In order to do that your esol level needs to be measured before the course by way of a test. In this test should you demonstrate esol entry 3 level and fail to improve your level by the end of the course then you will not qualify for the exemption.

Therefore you should play dumb at the start when your esol level is assessed so that the test at the end of the course shows an advancement in esol.

I am sorry Harvey, but this is a loophole, no-one can reasonably expect to improve their esol level in 1 week. I am sure that eventually the home office will close this loophole.

In the meantime good luck to all who use it, and well done to those that have organised it.

Harvey at home
15th Jun 2009, 14:55
Pete owd lad you are so wrong and I am so P====d so I will not give answer tonight to your post other than to say sorry for my omissioin and see you ( proverbally) tomorrow

Regards Harvey

Harvey at home
15th Jun 2009, 15:00
Sorry Pete this forum is such an obsession!
Please read this part of Macs post it deals specifically with Johns point:
Quoted from Macduff;

Hi john. Actually my wife has been attending the 5 day course and theres no way you can under achieve to gain. It is a speaking and understanding/ listening course as i've mentioned before. You are told of the tasks to perform.You cannot play dum on the first couple of days and then get better.As i've mentioned before in my previous posts you can certainly pull the wool over in the college course but not on the 5 day course. It is of no interest to the foreigner to (under perform) as you've put it john on the 5 day course.The certificate and letter from the 5 day course is the minimum requirement needed to get LLR/FLR/ILR/citizenship

Def my last word tonight Good night & God Blese to all here

Harvey

peterinkendal
16th Jun 2009, 02:36
Harvey, As I had quoted that post in my last post, I think it is a fair bet that I had actually read it!

Not sure where you think I am wrong???

Do you mean that you do not have to improve your esol level from the start of the course to the finish?

TheFiend
16th Jun 2009, 03:21
I am currently awaiting the result of my wifes settlement visa applicatiom, but have been following this thread with much interest. I live in West Cumbria and there doesn't seem to be much available here in the way of ESOL courses, so I am thinking of going the route of these 5 day courses.

Harvey at home
16th Jun 2009, 04:51
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
Harvey, As I had quoted that post in my last post, I think it is a fair bet that I had actually read it!

Not sure where you think I am wrong???

Do you mean that you do not have to improve your esol level from the start of the course to the finish?

Morning Pete
Just got back from dropping Wan off at the course.

Well the first thing is that with the greatest of respect you seem to be falling into the same trap as the other people who think of this course as some kind of loophole or similar.

Secondly Mac points out ( And this is s Fact) that there is no benefit in acting thick or playing dumb because the progression upwards of one level is not applicable to this particuler course and not relevent to passing or failing the test at the end of the courtse.

Thirdly and by definition and this is the gist of the matter, the short 5 day course is a route to complying to the requirement of the application for ILR or the application for Citizenship on its own merits and completely within the requirements as outlined in the Law.

If this was not the case then those who had already made application for ILR or citizenship and been given approveal for their applications using a pass certificate gained from this course, would have been rejected out of hand by those who examine and scutinise the applications.
To suggest as some have dome on this thread that those Home office or UKBA scutineers are some how not knowledgable on their own rules and guidelins is really crass.

I perhaps also need to explain that within the spirit of all the courses whether ESOL, LITUK test or the short 5 day course is that fundamental knowledge of the ability to communicate and be understood in the English language is paramount.

If you complete an ESOL course or that part of it that meets the requirement of the UKBA for the issue of either ILR Visa or Citizenship then you have shown that you meet those requirenets. You have acertificate saying so issued by a regulatory body approved by the UKBA

If you complete the Short 5 day course say at Serling learning or any other company able to give the course and then after being examined by a separate UKBA authorised body and gain a certificate then you have complied with all those rules and regulations that need to be met for the issue of the Visa or Citizenship.

I hope that this clarifies just what the course is about Pete.

Regards Harvey

Tobias
16th Jun 2009, 05:01
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
... Secondly Mac points out ( And this is s Fact) that there is no benefit in acting thick or playing dumb because the progression upwards of one level is not applicable to this particuler course and not relevent to passing or failing the test at the end of the courtse....
If that is indeed the case Harvey, then that course will not satisfy the legal requirements for ILR or citizenship.

NB: bold is for emphasis

Harvey at home
16th Jun 2009, 05:27
Originally posted by Tobias:

Originally posted by Harvey at home:
... Secondly Mac points out ( And this is s Fact) that there is no benefit in acting thick or playing dumb because the progression upwards of one level is not applicable to this particuler course and not relevent to passing or failing the test at the end of the courtse....
If that is indeed the case Harvey, then that course will not satisfy the legal requirements for ILR or citizenship.

NB: bold is for emphasis


This particular point of"Progression" is only relevent to the ESOL course and not to the 5 day short course, whose success is solely dependant on a pass certificate

Regards Harvey

Tobias
16th Jun 2009, 05:53
If what you say is correct then there is a problem with that course Harvey. The rules are very clear. An applicant for ILR/Citizenship (within a certain age and capacity) will have to attend and complete a combined ESOL/Citizenship course. There must be progression from one ESOL level to another or the applicant must pass the LitUK Test. There is no alternative.

peterinkendal
16th Jun 2009, 08:43
Tobias Said


Harvey. The rules are very clear. An applicant for ILR/Citizenship (within a certain age and capacity) will have to attend and complete a combined ESOL/Citizenship course. There must be progression from one ESOL level to another or the applicant must pass the LitUK Test. There is no alternative.

Exactly my point, Tobias

Harvey at home
16th Jun 2009, 14:48
To Peter and Tobias.


I got it wrong again Dad!!!


However because I have been obsessed with the actual course itself, I omitted to read all the requirements.
Now I have been briefed I fully accept that it has to be sent together with a letter from the college stating that a progression has been made to quallify.


I am at this time eating my Hat together with a little Tot to make this humble pie taste sweeter.

Regards Harvey

BigRed
17th Jun 2009, 12:03
So are we now in agreement that the course is not suitable :confused: regardless of the ethics do you get the correct paperwork to apply for citizenship?

Harvey at home
17th Jun 2009, 13:25
Originally posted by BigRed:
So are we now in agreement that the course is not suitable :confused: regardless of the ethics do you get the correct paperwork to apply for citizenship?

NO we are not in agreement and yes you do get the correct paperwork to apply for either ILR or Citizenship!


The point about the "progression" was an omission on my part quite correctly identified by Tobias and Peter but everything else is genuine and correct and the course is "Proper".

I have since done the research that I was asking the Expert doubters to do and shortly will be posting "chapter and verse "to show that it is genuine, legal, proper and in no way a "circumvention or loophole as prescribed by certain people on this forum but you will have to wait until I have all my material to hand.

In the meantime for those who may be hesitent in going on a course from Sterling learning or Cohesion education services have no fear and get on with it and join the other 600 people who have used their Manchester Birmingham offices to complets successfully this course since 2007.

To BigRed and maybe others who are folllowing this,with the greatest respect Do not assume that because I have not written anything other than a proper responce of retraction and appology to Tobias and Peter about that part of the course that needed a letter of "Progression" WHERE I WAS WRONG, that is the only area where I was in error.

In other words the completion of the course together with a certificate and a letter that would be issued from those running the respective courses statng that there has been "Progression" will result in an issue of an ILR visa or Citizenship

For those who wish to clarify for themselves the answer to the question of whether these courses are "Pukka"the answer is within the UKBA website for all to see and another error that I am guilty of is not getting my head down and my arse up and doing the research myself, thus avoiding the embarrassment of being put right by Pete and Tobias about that sole point on which they quite rightly corrected me!

I hope that this makes the position quite clear.

Regards Harvey

Gary & Nok
18th Jun 2009, 00:55
Originally posted by BigRed:
So are we now in agreement that the course is not suitable :confused: regardless of the ethics do you get the correct paperwork to apply for citizenship?
Sorry, but how many MORE times. This course IS suitable. Nok has taken the course at Cohesion Legal Services and now HAS an ILR and is in the process of applying for citizenship.
The NCS had NO problem with the certificate and letter that were supplied at the time of interview nor did the UKBA when issuing Nok her ILR.

We (those that have/are taken the course) get that a number of people on this site see it as circumventing the system but if the UKBA/Gov advertise these companies on their websites and they use the correct examining authority as requested on the application forms, then surely you HAVE to see that if it is good enough for them it HAS to be good enough for you.

Harvey knows that he “omitted” a small detail about the letter and as you can see has held his hands up to it but that does/did not detract from the main question about these companies and that is they are legit.

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 01:47
Thanks Gary I am beginning to feel like a lost soul!:wai:
:rolleyes: :(

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 02:42
....Just to clarify my point.

I am sure that the home office is accepting a letter from these companies to certify that progression from 1 esol level to another has been achieved. However, that cannot really be the case in a course that lasts only 1 week.

I fear that in the future the home office will question these letters, not the examination pass.

Please remember that it is not enough to pass the course but you have to advance 1 level in esol as well. It may be that in the future you may be required to undergo this course and a regular esol course as well.

I have no problem with the legitimacy of the companies involved who are doing a good job to get immigrants their ILR, neither do I have a problem with those taking advantage of it, I am just saying, get in there while the going is good, it may not last too long.

duster
18th Jun 2009, 03:41
Whatever the merits or demerits of the course, at a time when the Home Office is scrutinising every route to citizenship, and the people involved as students are pinning their hopes on the course, a public forum is perhaps not the best place to conduct a debate. One point I would make for any of the people wondering about the course in Manchester, it's in the roughest part of the city and facilities of both the college and the area may be something of a shock to the system.

KhunIanB-UK
18th Jun 2009, 03:49
For people who do not realise about the language requirement changes to ILR/Citizenship or have left things until the last minute to apply, these courses could be a godsend!

Remember also that the progression can be from pre-entry level to the lowest ESOL level, so if at assessment the person is not at ESOL Entry Level 1 then they will be at pre-entry level and after completing the course they may/would then have progressed to ESOL Entry Level 1 :thumb:.

I have mentioned on other threads that it is best not to "big up" the level of English :angel: due to this assessment as it would be "easier" to go from pre-entry to Entry 1 than Entry 1 to Entry 2!

When Aom did her ESOL with Citizenship course it was 2 mornings a week, only a couple of hours or so a morning, can't remember how many weeks it was over, but with a 1 week intensive course covering far more hours a day it could well equate to the same time learning :cool:

BigRed
18th Jun 2009, 05:20
One point I would make for any of the people wondering about the course in Manchester, it's in the roughest part of the city and facilities of both the college and the area may be something of a shock to the system.

It will not be a shock to those that visit the Thai Temple, it's the same area.

To clarify my views, I really don't care that much about the ethics, I don't think Thai women marrying UK Citizens is the problem they are trying to address anyway. As long as you get the correct bit of paperwork out of it that is good enough for me. I'm sure the MPs are now familiar with the concept of 'I've done nothing wrong, I've complied with the rules' ;)

I just don't want to see people spending the cash and getting nothing for it.

BTW. does anyone know the outcome of the dodgy Life in the UK test centre in Sheffield a year or more ago when they initially said everyone was going to have to retake the exam who had passed from that centre?

BigRed
18th Jun 2009, 06:40
Harvey,

How is the course going? Can you confirm that this is basically an oral course, not a written one? Is the exam at the end oral or written? I know of at least 4 women who would be interested in doing this if it is basically oral as they all have a good standard of spoken English but their reading/writing skills are a bit lacking.

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 12:17
Originally posted by BigRed:
Harvey,

How is the course going? Can you confirm that this is basically an oral course, not a written one? Is the exam at the end oral or written? I know of at least 4 women who would be interested in doing this if it is basically oral as they all have a good standard of spoken English but their reading/writing skills are a bit lacking.

hey up BigRed

Your description of the four ladies you mention fits Wan and most of the other students that I have met at the school with the exeception of one student who believe it or not was an excellent reader and writer of English but had great difficulty in speaking it

The test or as you call it Exam at the end of the course is entirely Oral.

I have met the lady teacher who conducts the course at Manchester. She is a consumate proffessional and I have no doubts that she would be able to help any student to acheive a pass or Progession on this course at whatever standard of "English" they are at.

The first day of the course is concerned with Citizenship and before Wan started the course I asked this lady if Wan because she had already done the 9 month course elewhere could be assessed and possbly take the "Oral" exam before completing the 4 days, the 5th day being the test day.
The teacher said that it would take a couple of days to assess Wan but there was a chance that Wan could take the test earlier.

On the night of Wans first day at the course Wan showed me a map of the Uk with pics of the Houses of Parliament, 10 downing street, Buckingham palace and other places that I cannot remember.
Previously when I was working as an HGV driver and Wan said where are you darling? I would say Birmingham, Scotland, Wales etc etc. My answer was like throwing seed on stony ground , Wan did not have a clue as to where the heck I was talking about.
Now after only one day she knew about not only where the houses of parliament where but that Gordon brown lived there, that the Queen lived at Buckingham palace.
She correctly identified Scotland, Wales and even differentiated between northern Irland and Southern Ireland, where Leeds was, London Glasgow Etc.
I did not say anything to Wan only to praise her acheivements but when I went back to the school the day after I said to the teacher that we did not want Wan to have an early test but that she would do the whole course.

Regards Harvey

macduff
18th Jun 2009, 12:31
Does anybody read my posts on this issue or am i wasting my time?

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 12:39
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
....Just to clarify my point.

I am sure that the home office is accepting a letter from these companies to certify that progression from 1 esol level to another has been achieved. However, that cannot really be the case in a course that lasts only 1 week.

I fear that in the future the home office will question these letters, not the examination pass.

Please remember that it is not enough to pass the course but you have to advance 1 level in esol as well. It may be that in the future you may be required to undergo this course and a regular esol course as well.

I have no problem with the legitimacy of the companies involved who are doing a good job to get immigrants their ILR, neither do I have a problem with those taking advantage of it, I am just saying, get in there while the going is good, it may not last too long.

With the greatest respect to you Peter you simply do not understand the requirements of the alternative to the LITUK Test and once again I reiterate that to think that the people on the UKBA who scutinise these application that have this course as their ESOL qualification as some how missing some thing or being incompetant is insulting their professionalism .

I quote Khun Ian B who has got the measure of this course completely, quote;

"Remember also that the progression can be from pre-entry level to the lowest ESOL level, so if at assessment the person is not at ESOL Entry Level 1 then they will be at pre-entry level and after completing the course they may/would then have progressed to ESOL Entry Level 1."

And also:

"When Aom did her ESOL with Citizenship course it was 2 mornings a week, only a couple of hours or so a morning, can't remember how many weeks it was over, but with a 1 week intensive course covering far more hours a day it could well equate to the same time learning" Unquote.

More from Gary quote;

"We (those that have/are taken the course) get that a number of people on this site see it as circumventing the system but if the UKBA/Gov advertise these companies on their websites and they use the correct examining authority as requested on the application forms, then surely you HAVE to see that if it is good enough for them it HAS to be good enough for you." Unquote.

Regards Harve

macduff
18th Jun 2009, 13:02
I've just been on the UKBA website and looked at the guide which does not mention the alternatives available for the requirements of the said courses.

Now if you look at the set(m) form itself and scroll down to Note 2 relevant qualifications (either)

an english for speakers of other languages (ESOL) skills for life qualification in speaking and listening at entry level from an approved award body. I would call that cohesion or similar.

If going the college route you would need to show progression from one level to the next as it states and that takes time. I hope i hav'nt missed anything.

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 13:09
Hello Mac

Your quote

I've just been on the UKBA website and looked at the guide which does not mention the alternatives available for the requirements of the said courses."

Unquote.. yes it does!


Regards Harvey

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 13:16
Just a thougt.

Why do the doubters to this legally acceptible and genuine course not look at the "Regular" ESOL courses that are run by the Gov funded colleges and ask themselves or of course ask the colleges direct,

"Why do you not run a short 5 day intensive course the same as Sterling learning or Cohesion services that would be dedicated to those people who only wish to progress on your course to the requirement of the UKBA in obtaining either ILR Visa or Citizenship.?"


I await your comments to my question with eager anticipation.

Regards Harvey

macduff
18th Jun 2009, 13:18
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
Hello Mac

Your quote

I've just been on the UKBA website and looked at the guide which does not mention the alternatives available for the requirements of the said courses."

Unquote.. yes it does!


Regards Harvey

I was refering to the guide

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 13:31
ESOL with Citizenship Content Courses
If you are not yet at ESOL Entry 3 level you will be able to meet the new
requirements by successfully completing a language course, involving
learning materials which includes information about citizenship. These
materials are intended to enable you to gain sufficient knowledge of the UK at
the same time as developing your knowledge of the English language. In
order to meet the requirements for settlement, you will need to show that you
have progressed from one ESOL level to the next.
Courses are available at many Further Education, Adult and Community
Colleges across the UK. You will need to make sure the college course that
you enrol for includes the "language with citizenship" materials and that the
college will issue a letter to confirm this when you have successfully gained
your qualification. ESOL certificates are issued by one of the approved
Awarding Bodies and not by Colleges themselves, so you will be gaining an
externally verified qualification that might be useful to you in work or further
study.

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 13:37
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

With the greatest respect to you Peter you simply do not understand the requirements of the alternative to the LITUK Test and once again I reiterate that to think that the people on the UKBA who scutinise these application that have this course as their ESOL qualification as some how missing some thing or being incompetant is insulting their professionalism .



Oh dear, Harvey, Harvey, Harvey. The way I understand the alternative to the lituk is as follows:

You have to pass a citizenship exam set by an approved exam body and show proof that you have advanced 1 level in esol.

Now if you think that I am wrong then please be specific as to where.

If you accept that I am right then please explain how someone can go from esol level 2 to esol level 1 in the space of one week. Using this logic then someone who cannot speak english at all could advance 1 level each week and in the space of 3 months full time study be able to take a gcse in english.

Clearly these courses are designed solely to get people through the ILR requirement, therefore the course is designed to pass the citizenship test at the end of the course. The required advancement from one esol level to another is not tested by an approved body but by the course presenters, by way of a letter. Of course they are going to say that the student has advanced whether they have or have not.

Its a bit like taking a driving test but allowing the instructor to certify that the students eyesight is acceptable.

I do not criticise the course providers nor the students who get ILR from this route. But sooner or later the government will get wise to this short cut as more and more immigrants go down this route.

I do accept the point that an intensive course may provide the same number of hours study as a 2 hour a week part time course. But the person doing 2 hours a week will not tire and lose concentration, also he will spend many more hours doing homework and reading.

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 13:44
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
Just a thougt.

Why do the doubters to this legally acceptible and genuine course not look at the "Regular" ESOL courses that are run by the Gov funded colleges and ask themselves or of course ask the colleges direct,

"Why do you not run a short 5 day intensive course the same as Sterling learning or Cohesion services that would be dedicated to those people who only wish to progress on your course to the requirement of the UKBA in obtaining either ILR Visa or Citizenship.?"


I await your comments to my question with eager anticipation.

Regards Harvey

Well that is one of your easier questions.

At our local college we have 1 esol teacher who takes a variety of esol courses. ie 3 hours monday morning may be esol entry 3, and in the afternoon she will take esol entry level 2. How could she do this and an intensive course too.

Sure another instructor could be employed, but after doing several intensive courses they would, at least in kendal run out of students.

Secondly, how many colleges have a classroom empty all week for such a course?

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 13:49
Using this logic then someone who cannot speak english at all could advance 1 level each week and in the space of 3 months full time study be able to take a gcse in english.


Peter Peter Peter. Peter

Your quote;

"Using this logic then someone who cannot speak english at all could advance 1 level each week and in the space of 3 months full time study be able to take a gcse in english."Unquote.

And I think that I have said this next bit quite a few times in previous posts on this thread;

That before Sterling learning will accpet entrants to this course they will have to be assessed on their ability to understand the contents of the course and then to undergo the Oral test at the end of the course.In other words Peter they will have to have a basic ability to communicate in English but this is nothing new in these posts because as I have said I mentioned this in the very first of my posts on this subject.

I presume that Cohesion will be the same.

Regards Harvey

EDIT 5 mins later

Just found one place where I stated that there was an assment;

5 thJune 2009;

For a start applicants for these short courses have to undertake an assement and if they fail that assessment cannot be allowed to undertake the course.

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 13:49
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
ESOL with Citizenship Content Courses
If you are not yet at ESOL Entry 3 level you will be able to meet the new
requirements by successfully completing a language course, involving
learning materials which includes information about citizenship. These
materials are intended to enable you to gain sufficient knowledge of the UK at
the same time as developing your knowledge of the English language. In
order to meet the requirements for settlement, you will need to show that you
have progressed from one ESOL level to the next.
Courses are available at many Further Education, Adult and Community
Colleges across the UK. You will need to make sure the college course that
you enrol for includes the "language with citizenship" materials and that the
college will issue a letter to confirm this when you have successfully gained
your qualification. ESOL certificates are issued by one of the approved
Awarding Bodies and not by Colleges themselves, so you will be gaining an
externally verified qualification that might be useful to you in work or further
study.

How is one meant to show advancement from 1 esol level to another? Here you say that esol is tested at the end of the course by a recognised exam body, which will test on reading and writing too. And yet you say that the course is oral? Also, this test would certify as to the level you have reached by the end of the course, in order to show advancement then you would have to show an esol certificate showing a lesser skill in esol, surely?

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 13:56
Originally posted by peterinkendal:

Originally posted by Harvey at home:
ESOL with Citizenship Content Courses
If you are not yet at ESOL Entry 3 level you will be able to meet the new
requirements by successfully completing a language course, involving
learning materials which includes information about citizenship. These
materials are intended to enable you to gain sufficient knowledge of the UK at
the same time as developing your knowledge of the English language. In
order to meet the requirements for settlement, you will need to show that you
have progressed from one ESOL level to the next.
Courses are available at many Further Education, Adult and Community
Colleges across the UK. You will need to make sure the college course that
you enrol for includes the "language with citizenship" materials and that the
college will issue a letter to confirm this when you have successfully gained
your qualification. ESOL certificates are issued by one of the approved
Awarding Bodies and not by Colleges themselves, so you will be gaining an
externally verified qualification that might be useful to you in work or further
study.

How is one meant to show advancement from 1 esol level to another? Here you say that esol is tested at the end of the course by a recognised exam body, which will test on reading and writing too. And yet you say that the course is oral? Also, this test would certify as to the level you have reached by the end of the course, in order to show advancement then you would have to show an esol certificate showing a lesser skill in esol, surely?

No I did not mention reading or writing!!!!!

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 14:10
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
I did not mention reading or writing!!!!!

OK lets put that to one side for the moment and please answer this question:


Originally posted by Peterinkendal:

How is one meant to show advancement from 1 esol level to another? Here you say that esol is tested at the end of the course by a recognised exam body, This would certify as to the level you have reached by the end of the course, in order to show advancement then you would have to show an esol certificate showing a lesser skill in esol, surely?

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 14:19
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

Originally posted by peterinkendal:

Originally posted by Harvey at home:
ESOL with Citizenship Content Courses
If you are not yet at ESOL Entry 3 level you will be able to meet the new
requirements by successfully completing a language course, involving
learning materials which includes information about citizenship. These
materials are intended to enable you to gain sufficient knowledge of the UK at
the same time as developing your knowledge of the English language. In
order to meet the requirements for settlement, you will need to show that you
have progressed from one ESOL level to the next.
Courses are available at many Further Education, Adult and Community
Colleges across the UK. You will need to make sure the college course that
you enrol for includes the "language with citizenship" materials and that the
college will issue a letter to confirm this when you have successfully gained
your qualification. ESOL certificates are issued by one of the approved
Awarding Bodies and not by Colleges themselves, so you will be gaining an
externally verified qualification that might be useful to you in work or further
study.

How is one meant to show advancement from 1 esol level to another? Here you say that esol is tested at the end of the course by a recognised exam body, which will test on reading and writing too. And yet you say that the course is oral? Also, this test would certify as to the level you have reached by the end of the course, in order to show advancement then you would have to show an esol certificate showing a lesser skill in esol, surely?

No I did not mention reading or writing!!!!!


Further; Quote
"How is one meant to show advancement from 1 esol level to another? " Unquote

By being "Orally" tested by a member of one of the august bodies named as acceptible to the UKBA for the issue of ESOL certificates.

Quote
"Also, this test would certify as to the level you have reached by the end of the course" Unquote Yes!

Your quote
"in order to show advancement then you would have to show an esol certificate showing a lesser skill in esol, surely?"

Unquote. NO

Progression could be from 0 to 1 Surely.


Great stuff Pete
Wan has given me hell because the bath water is going cold.
......................7 mins................................
I claim the TUK record for having a bath and answerina post in 7 minutes flat. Beat that Pete!

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 14:22
Progression could be from 0 to 1 Surely.


Or from
Pre-entry 1 to Pre-entry 2 as long as their is Citizenship content

Harvey

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 14:27
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harvey at home:
I did not mention reading or writing!!!!!

your quote
OK lets put that to one side for the moment and please answer this question: unquote

Why should we put it aside for a minute, are you checking my post to see if I am telling little fibs? :lol:

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 14:31
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

Progression could be from 0 to 1 Surely.


Or from
Pre-entry 1 to Pre-entry 2 as long as their is Citizenship content

Harvey

yep, i guess that would be ok, but you would have to show that at the start of the course your esol was at pre-entry 1. One could argue that your starting esol was pre-entry 2 and thus you have failed to achieve an advancement.

Like I said you would have to have a certificate showing your precourse skills to compare against your post course certificate.

p.s. could not beat 7 mins, waste of bath water if you don;t get at least 15!

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 14:33
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

Originally posted by peterinkendal:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harvey at home:
I did not mention reading or writing!!!!!

your quote
OK lets put that to one side for the moment and please answer this question: unquote

Why should we put it aside for a minute, are you checking my post to see if I am telling little fibs? :lol:

lol, you really kill me harvey :)

quite simply its getting late and I am a hopeless multitasker at the best of times

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 14:48
Originally posted by peterinkendal:

Originally posted by Harvey at home:
Just a thougt.

Why do the doubters to this legally acceptible and genuine course not look at the "Regular" ESOL courses that are run by the Gov funded colleges and ask themselves or of course ask the colleges direct,

"Why do you not run a short 5 day intensive course the same as Sterling learning or Cohesion services that would be dedicated to those people who only wish to progress on your course to the requirement of the UKBA in obtaining either ILR Visa or Citizenship.?"


I await your comments to my question with eager anticipation.

Regards Harvey

Well that is one of your easier questions.

At our local college we have 1 esol teacher who takes a variety of esol courses. ie 3 hours monday morning may be esol entry 3, and in the afternoon she will take esol entry level 2. How could she do this and an intensive course too.

Sure another instructor could be employed, but after doing several intensive courses they would, at least in kendal run out of students.

Secondly, how many colleges have a classroom empty all week for such a course?



The answer Peter is simple but not the one that you have offered.

I am sure that there will be many minor reasons but the one that stops them doing the short course is that Gov funded courses have to be of 9 months duration or they do not qualify for funding and therefore the colleges will not countenence them for that reason alone.

Yes the answer is simple is'nt it but it does not address the real need for the short course and that is based on economics and not having students do unneeded and not wanted excursions into a too high standard that most of the Thai student could never ever attain and that is not a slight on their abilities but more of a case of setting priorities.

Apart from a rare few who have time on their hands and the money to spare to do such long winded courses most of the students will want to be doing the minimum needed and getting to work to keep themselves and their families above the breadline that the over inflated, profit related fees for Visa and for those in their first year or residence would have to pay for a first term ESOL course. ( In 2008 in Oldham last year the fee would have been £1500)

Harvey

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 14:55
Goodnight and God Bless Peter

and thanks for a great couple of hours.

Forgive me if I some times get a bit intense but anything that is legal and accptible I will back 100%.

This Gov is kicking people when they are already at the bottom of the pile with over inflated fees for visas and the non- funding of short courses that they already approve of.


Regards Harvey

.

macduff
18th Jun 2009, 15:02
Hi guys i must say i'm enjoying harvey and peters posts.I've never known such an intense thread and the banter between you both is cracking me up. Get some rest tonight guys and i amongst others will certainly be tuning in to this channel tomorrow for the next episode.

paul

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 15:05
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

The answer Peter is simple but not the one that you have offered.

I am sure that there will be many minor reasons but the one that stops them doing the short course is that Gov funded courses have to be of 9 months duration or they do not qualify for funding and therefore the colleges will not countenence them for that reason alone.

Yes the answer is simple is'nt it but it does not address the real need for the short course and that is based on economics and not having students do unneeded and not wanted excursions into a too high standard that most of the Thai student could never ever attain and that is not a slight on their abilities but more of a case of setting priorities.

Apart from a rare few who have time on their hands and the money to spare to do such long winded courses most of the students will want to be doing the minimum needed and getting to work to keep themselves and their families above the breadline that the over inflated, profit related fees for Visa and for those in their first year or residence would have to pay for a first term ESOL course. ( In 2008 in Oldham last year the fee would have been £1500)

Harvey

Most students on these courses are europeans and therefore do not need ILR to live and work in the UK. I know that cos my wife did one of these courses for 1 year, I cannot remember how much it cost, but it was around several hundred pounds.

Why do you suppose then that the government insists on courses being for 9 months duration before they fund them?

perhaps it may be cos thats how much time you need to advance from one level to another. Like I said my wife did one of thesse courses, each week getting stacks of homework, at the end of the course she had manaaged to advance one level in esol, that is after 9 months study, loads of homework and constantly living in an english speaking country......and you wonder why I doubt students could achieve all that in the space of 4 days as well as learn citizenship too!

peterinkendal
18th Jun 2009, 15:08
Originally posted by macduff:
Hi guys i must say i'm enjoying harvey and peters posts.I've never known such an intense thread and the banter between you both is cracking me up. Get some rest tonight guys and i amongst others will certainly be tuning in to this channel tomorrow for the next episode.

paul

Yeah, its nice that we can debate from different sides without throwing insults.

Thanks for an interesting evening Harvey, look forward to more tomorrow!

Peter

macduff
18th Jun 2009, 15:20
I think Harvey's gone to sleep. I can just imagine him face down slavering on the keyboard :sleep:

Harvey at home
18th Jun 2009, 22:22
As you can see from the time, its early! I am just checking the latest stimluli before I take my daily walk over the moor near to our house.
At this time in the morning the air is invigorating up here and clears the brain, ready for another exciting day in the life of a TUK junkie.

Regards Harvey

Ps Sorry Pete I did not see that we had "progressed one level" ;) to page 5 and so missed your post on page 4 where you talk about why they do not do a short course and why did your Mrs take so long to acieve a progression.

I will save my answer for tonight when Wan and I get in ,till than have a nice day

Further thank you chaps for the nice comments this is what it is all about.

Harvey

Gary & Nok
19th Jun 2009, 01:19
Can I add my twopennysworth and say one thing on this “9 month” issue and that is, perhaps the Gov decide that it would take someone that long to learn to read and write if they had no knowledge of English.

The Cohesion and Sterling course are ONLY speaking and listening courses and I would therefore suggest that the Gov excepts that someone could possibly do this in a week (but some do not and take 3 or 4 weeks and 3 or 4 attempts at the oral exam before passing, well at least at Cohesion anyway).

At the end of the day these courses are there and why should our Thai partners not take advantage of them the same as many of the Indian, Pakistani, Somali etc. etc (at least in Brum) are doing.

PS
Good, clean debate lads, keep up the good work :D

ddwjg
19th Jun 2009, 03:23
Harvey, I'm not sure why people have drawn you into a debate on this. You have tried to help forum members and guests by posting a link to a possibly useful course. Good on you.It is now up to the individual to find out more.

You don't need to defend this course. Your o/p did nothing to promote this course. Only tell of its existance.

You are posting like every criticism of their website is a personal affront to yourself. It is forum members' prerogative to comment on the website, and the course.

Dave.

I just thought I would repost the above. And why aren't Sterling Learning, who are members of Thailand-UK, getting involved in answering some of these queries?

Dave

macduff
19th Jun 2009, 03:31
Originally posted by ddwjg:

Harvey, I'm not sure why people have drawn you into a debate on this. You have tried to help forum members and guests by posting a link to a possibly useful course. Good on you.It is now up to the individual to find out more.

You don't need to defend this course. Your o/p did nothing to promote this course. Only tell of its existance.

You are posting like every criticism of their website is a personal affront to yourself. It is forum members' prerogative to comment on the website, and the course.

Dave.

I just thought I would repost the above. And why aren't Sterling Learning, who are members of Thailand-UK, getting involved in answering some of these queries?

Dave

Good point dave. Maybe they know something we dont :help:

KhunIanB-UK
19th Jun 2009, 04:49
If you accept that I am right then please explain how someone can go from esol level 2 to esol level 1 in the space of one week. Using this logic then someone who cannot speak english at all could advance 1 level each week and in the space of 3 months full time study be able to take a gcse in english.

Clearly these courses are designed solely to get people through the ILR requirement, therefore the course is designed to pass the citizenship test at the end of the course. The required advancement from one esol level to another is not tested by an approved body but by the course presenters, by way of a letter. Of course they are going to say that the student has advanced whether they have or have not.

Its a bit like taking a driving test but allowing the instructor to certify that the students eyesight is acceptable.

Peter,

Trying to find info on ESOL levels can prove a bit tricky, but basically what I think these courses make use of (for our purposes) is different to your driving test analogy and the pre-entry level to Entry Level 1 would be more similar to turning up to a cycling proficiency place and them asking if you have evidence that you can ride a bicycle when you say no (even though you may have ridden a bicycle you have no certification) they then procede to instruct you and then after a week, when you have the basics they then issue you with a certificate to indicate a basic proficiency :banana: From this point you then decide that you want to progress further so stunt cycling, then motorbike, then car, truck, plane etc.

That's where the Pre-Entry level comes into it, basically means you have no certifiable experience.

Wolfy
19th Jun 2009, 07:21
And why aren't Sterling Learning, who are members of Thailand-UK, getting involved in answering some of these queries?

Dave

Yeah, come on Sterling where are you ???

Harvey at home
19th Jun 2009, 10:52
Originally posted by ddwjg:

Harvey, I'm not sure why people have drawn you into a debate on this. You have tried to help forum members and guests by posting a link to a possibly useful course. Good on you.It is now up to the individual to find out more.

You don't need to defend this course. Your o/p did nothing to promote this course. Only tell of its existance.

You are posting like every criticism of their website is a personal affront to yourself. It is forum members' prerogative to comment on the website, and the course.

Dave.

I just thought I would repost the above. And why aren't Sterling Learning, who are members of Thailand-UK, getting involved in answering some of these queries?

Dave

Thanks Dave for your kind comment it is appreciated.

As Far as Sterling are concerned they may well post when that feel that it is fit to do so, I cannot answer that one but I will say that they are (Ithink) setting up a sponsership with Lee and also sorting out their new Web site, so maybe when these things are in place we will have more info from them.

Gary

I do think that you have hit the nail on the head and said it all in very few words, however I do not think that the Gov are interested in anything to do with ESOL other than as a money maker by way of financing the colleges funding requirement.

We do tend to forget that for the issue of the visa ESOL levels are not required other than for the English speaking and understanding bit and even for this a "Progression" is the only lawful certification that is needed.
Colleges are well placed to do these short course but will not becasue the GOV will not fund them.

So effectively and this really is the point of the short course no standard or Mark is needed only a certifiable "Progression" together with a covering letter

This point has been missed time and time again by those who try to make some thing of the ESOL courses in relation to the Standards required. I will not go over that again!

Khun Ian B

"That's where the Pre-Entry level comes into it, basically means you have no certifiable experience."


Yhats not true Ian, you will have a cert saying that you have progressed a level in a course conatining Citizenship material, together with a covering letter stating that you have attended a course Etc Etc Etc.

Macduff

"Good point dave. Maybe they know something we dont"

Yes that is quite true to my knowledge they know a great deal about their subject and no doubt will enlighten us all when they feel it is appropriate to do so.


Oh sugar that sounded a bit hoity toity did'nt it?

Regards Harvey :wai:

Harvey at home
19th Jun 2009, 10:57
Sori fert spelin jst ad a luk ut mi porst and i cun cee thet thi spelin is reit crap.
Harvey

Ps I think that being a two fingered typer I some times type quicker than my little brain can handle.

And please no sarki comments for what I have just said.

peterinkendal
19th Jun 2009, 11:01
Originally posted by KhunIanB-UK:

Peter,

would be more similar to turning up to a cycling proficiency place and them asking if you have evidence that you can ride a bicycle when you say no (even though you may have ridden a bicycle you have no certification) they then procede to instruct you and then after a week, when you have the basics they then issue you with a certificate to indicate a basic proficiency :banana: From this point you then decide that you want to progress further so stunt cycling, then motorbike, then car, truck, plane etc.

That's where the Pre-Entry level comes into it, basically means you have no certifiable experience.

I can see your point Ian, but any reputable college will first assess your esol skills before putting you into the appropriate class for your ability. From there you would have to advance to the next class in order to satisfy the home office.

These courses are actually 4 days, with the test on day 5. So the first 3 days (15-20 hours) would be to learn the necessary to pass the day 5 citizenship test, with day 4 a revision day. I don't care what anyone says there is no time in such a short course to learn anything but citizenship. Soon nobody will be doing the lituk test cos this is much simpler and when that happens the home secretary will start thinking, hang on, whats going on here?

Harvey at home
19th Jun 2009, 14:08
Fro Pete; Quote

I can see your point Ian, but any reputable college will first assess your esol skills before putting you into the appropriate class for your ability. From there you would have to advance to the next class in order to satisfy the home office.

These courses are actually 4 days, with the test on day 5. So the first 3 days (15-20 hours) would be to learn the necessary to pass the day 5 citizenship test, with day 4 a revision day. I don't care what anyone says there is no time in such a short course to learn anything but citizenship. Soon nobody will be doing the lituk test cos this is much simpler and when that happens the home secretary will start thinking, hang on, whats going on here?
Unquote;

No you don't Pete! You do not see the point at all!

All your post is "Subjective" and only an opinion, not based on any personal or practical experience of doing the course and yes of course you are entitled to that opinion but it is wrong to say that what you conclude about what could be the outcome by the home secretary based on your own subjective opinion!

You then say " I don't care what anypone else says" ( your opinion again and not based on any facts) Reminds me somewhat of some thing that "Alf Garnett would have said! )

Once again you are giving us the benefit of your own opinion.
In bringing the Home Secs real or imagined future actions into this thread you may well be the Prophet that brought about his prophecy by talking about it on this site in the way that you do.
The beaurocrats do not need encouragement from us to make the Visa laws and fees even more draconian than they are and the things that you are saying on this thread may well encourage them to do so.

Maybe I'm not on my own in being obsessed with this subject Peter but I have a personal interest for being positive and encouraging about the courses quallities. What are your reasons for being negative about it, do you wish to see even more red tape and beaurocracy involved in getting the ILR or citizenship.
Can I remind you that we jumped the same sort of hoops and paid over the top fees when we first made application for settlemnent visa.

Its as if you want to bring down this perfectly legal avenue to the issue of an ILR or citizenship.

If we are expressing opinions let me give you mine on what could be the course content.

My comment is based on the Fact yes Fact Peter that the student has already had an assessment in his/her capacity to understand and communicate in the English language to a level thet they would be able to take in and absorb the course content itself.


1 First day

Citizenship, who and how the Gov rule this Country.
Maps showing the geography and cities and town of the UK

2 second day
Maybe some content from the first day but now talking about normal every day occurrencies like going to the shops, giving directions.

3 third day
Role play and disscussion about different subjects, football, cricket, areas of common interest, role plays where one student will pretend to be
have a need or enquirey and another will try to answeran example could be in givingd directions or similar.

4 Fourth Day

Perhaps re-inforcing of the three previous days.

5 Fifth day

The test or exam whatever, where the examiner would engage the examinee in a verbal discussion of all those areas that had been covered in the course to identify that the student had made "Progression" upwards.


The above is purely my opinion of what may take place within the 5 days of the short course.

Not that it is relevent to this disscussion but the LITUK Test can be achieved by a person with very little knowledge of the UK or English language in 20 minutes.
They would just need to be computor literate and lucky.

Regards Harvey

peterinkendal
20th Jun 2009, 03:17
Originally posted by Harvey at home.

Not that it is relevent to this disscussion but the LITUK Test can be achieved by a person with very little knowledge of the UK or English language in 20 minutes.
They would just need to be computor literate and lucky.

Regards Harvey

WHOOAAA, Harvey mi lad, you have just gone way down in my estimation!

How can you say that? You are asked 24 questions out of a possible 3000 or more. Have you read the study guide issued by the Government, even I find parts of that hard to understand! and there are nearly 100 A4 pages of nothing but facts and figures such as how many Pakistani immigrants currently live in the UK. One of the chapters finish with the followin in part of the checklist. "check that you understand the differences between the Council of Europe, the European Union, The European Commission and the European Parliament".....well harvey, do you know the differences?

If it were that easy then please explain why you say your wife will never be able to pass it?

Mol, did pass the test on her third attempt, but this was after spending many weeks working together to study the syllabus, as well as 1 year studying English, not a mere 3 days talking about it in a classroom.

The whole point of this is for the applicant to put in a considerable effort in order to be able to stay and live in the UK indefinitely.

You say our immigrant laws are draconian? but yet I could live in Thailand wife my Thai wife for the next 20 years, and I would never be granted citizenship, nor the right to remain indefinetly, indeed I would have to register with the police every 3 months and reapply for permission to stay every year, at any of these applications I could be refused and be forced to leave.

In fact, you will find that the UK has some of the most lenient immigration rules in the western world!

The whole point of the lituk test is to discourage immigrants from creating ghettos. Did you know that there are parts of our cities now where English is not understand at all? Is it any wonder that we have so much racial conflict?

peterinkendal
20th Jun 2009, 03:48
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

No you don't Pete! You do not see the point at all!

All your post is "Subjective" and only an opinion, not based on any personal or practical experience of doing the course and yes of course you are entitled to that opinion but it is wrong to say that what you conclude about what could be the outcome by the home secretary based on your own subjective opinion!

You then say " I don't care what anypone else says" ( your opinion again and not based on any facts) Reminds me somewhat of some thing that "Alf Garnett would have said! )

Once again you are giving us the benefit of your own opinion.

Look, if I offerred you a 2 week course where at the end of it you would be a qualified doctor, would you go on it?
NO! of course not, you would say that it is ridiculous and would not need to go on the course in order to formulate an accurate opinion on it.

....And that is not so ridiculous as it sounds, there are 'colleges' who will award you with a tefl certificate enabling you to teach english anywhere in the world, for a minimal course and lots of cash.



Its as if you want to bring down this perfectly legal avenue to the issue of an ILR or citizenship.


that is simply not true and I refer you to my previous posts on the subject. However I do support my Governments efforts on trying to ensure that immigrants are successfully integrated into our society.


My comment is based on the Fact yes Fact Peter that the student has already had an assessment in his/her capacity to understand and communicate in the English language to a level thet they would be able to take in and absorb the course content itself.

I agree!, yep, you read right, I agree! ....so to satisfy the home office, that level of english needs to improve within the space of 4 days as well as learn all about life in the UK.

How did your wife get on with the course? did she pass? I hope so.

duster
20th Jun 2009, 07:24
What the hell is the facination with these courses? The same old boring points are made over and over again, answered and made again. Why single out these courses? Crap courses are being run by lousy teachers up and down the country. This one gets results so don't knock it. As for long course v short course it depends on the quality of the teaching and the preferences and characteristics of the students. Lots of Thais I know have passed the life in uk test without reading the book at all, merely singing up online to a test site and taking the tests over and over again. They have no real understanding or depth of knowledge but pass the test...because by rote they learn the answer without knowing what it means...given the low score required and the frequency of repeated questions it's a good way to pass. Will the government retrospectively disqualify them or retest them...no.

Why so many negatives from posters...a pass is a pass is a pass.

On another point....it's not neccesarily the formal testing but the informal testing that is important. IE when you sign up, make a committment, pay for a course, attend thirty hours, that shows a degree of willingness and a good attitude and a desire to do well and integrate into mainstream society. In a sense that is the test rather than an exam...which as I have demonstrated, is passed in ways the testers may not have envisaged.

If the governments intention is to set up hurdles, does it really matter how they are negotiated. Indeed one could argue it shows a degree of real intelligence to determine precisely the most appropriate method for a particular student to achieve success.

Wolfy
20th Jun 2009, 07:32
i can hear Duster's Cage rattling :)

macduff
20th Jun 2009, 07:58
I must say the goverment are quite clever on the way they've done this.Just think how much money there going to make on this.And dont forget a quick turn around for visa applications.Maybe that's why there's such a long waiting time for approvals.If you go the college route it'll take you over a year to apply.but the short course hey 5 days then send your 820 quid off with time on your hands and no inconvenience.I know what i'd prefare for my misses :)

Harvey at home
20th Jun 2009, 13:10
Hello Peter

I think that I have to stop posting on this subject now because we are merely going over the same stuff time and time again, you never seem to be able to grasp the point made not just by me but others on the forum who have made logical and sensible comments that certainly do not agree with your points of view.

I could maybe appreciate your point of view if I did not have a biased self interest in the Visa rules and their effects on Wans application for ILR visa.

I could understand why you are throwing cold water on this course if you had a motive for making the visa harder to get.

I cannot understand why you are so indignant and self righteous about a simple course that is of great benefit to those who like Wan have had to take it through in her case a time problem.

Why Draconian?


Peter I took it for granted that you would be able to understand that I spoke from the point of view of an Englishman and my desire to bring my wife into this my home country and for me the hoops and profit inflated fees together with the long delays, worry are Draconian!



Regards Harvey

Harvey at home
20th Jun 2009, 13:20
Originally posted by duster:
What the hell is the facination with these courses? The same old boring points are made over and over again, answered and made again. Why single out these courses? Crap courses are being run by lousy teachers up and down the country. This one gets results so don't knock it. As for long course v short course it depends on the quality of the teaching and the preferences and characteristics of the students. Lots of Thais I know have passed the life in uk test without reading the book at all, merely singing up online to a test site and taking the tests over and over again. They have no real understanding or depth of knowledge but pass the test...because by rote they learn the answer without knowing what it means...given the low score required and the frequency of repeated questions it's a good way to pass. Will the government retrospectively disqualify them or retest them...no.

Why so many negatives from posters...a pass is a pass is a pass.

On another point....it's not neccesarily the formal testing but the informal testing that is important. IE when you sign up, make a committment, pay for a course, attend thirty hours, that shows a degree of willingness and a good attitude and a desire to do well and integrate into mainstream society. In a sense that is the test rather than an exam...which as I have demonstrated, is passed in ways the testers may not have envisaged.

If the governments intention is to set up hurdles, does it really matter how they are negotiated. Indeed one could argue it shows a degree of real intelligence to determine precisely the most appropriate method for a particular student to achieve success.

Great post!!!!


Duster

I had made my mind up that my reply to Pete would be my last one on this thread but I need to say that your few words have summed it up perfectly and I needed to tell you!.

Are you prepared to do a short course on saying common sense things in as short a time as possible?

Regards Harvey
If so Me and Pete will be signing up.

Gary & Nok
20th Jun 2009, 14:41
Guys, Guys, Guys, whilst I am enjoying the banter I don't think either of you is going to except the others point of view :shrug: it looks like poor old Harvey has thrown the towel in now anyway :(

A point I would like to make (just to try and keep the bickering going :D).
Peter, one thing that I think (and forgive me if I have missed it in this long thread) may have been forgotten is that the LIUK test is for ESOL level 3 and above, so anyone that can not read and write should have no hope, and indeed is not expected by the Government, to pass this test.
Some do by luck more than judgement as I can personally testify to with a chap from Kenya who I spoke to at a LearnDirect centre one time (when Nok was trying it) who told me he was going to give it a shot first before having to worry about studying, he passed :confused:

The other way to advance for those not at level 3 of reading and writing is that they attend colleges/schools and take a course and advance from one Level to another and pass that way.

The third (and if I may say so little/not known of way until I posted about Cohesion Legal Services (http://thailand-uk.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/85010002/m/2961016033?r=4221028033#4221028033) here) is for those that CANNOT read and write (English) is the way we have all been waffling about for the last 5 pages.

I will say it again: IT'S LEGIT, IT'S ON THE GOV WEBSITE, AND IT WORKS BECAUSE MY WIFE HAS DONE IT.

Having shouted that (sorry) I will just say that Harvey you were not to far off the plot with your assumption of the day to day running of the course and no doubt you will now be aware of the exact contents as I assume your wife finished the week and took the test on the Friday.

How did she think she got on? In Nok's case she was not told on the day by the person that examined her as they took away all the notes etc, to asses her answers.

It took 3-4 weeks before the results came back but we had already been given the nod by Malic (the owner of Cohesion) to say that from his experience she had done OK and would be very surprised if she did not pass.

Pleas let us know how she got on when you know (as if you could be stopped from shouting it from the rooftops) :D

Harvey at home
20th Jun 2009, 14:48
Hey up Gaz

Bit fed up toneet got the daddy of all hangovers been mixing the Scotch with singha, chang and some other spirit.

Yes you guessed it we don't know yet but will tell as soon as we know.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzhiczzzzzzzzzzzz

Gary & Nok
20th Jun 2009, 17:07
:cry: makes my Horlicks seem a bit tame :nod:

Sure she has done well, keep my fingers crossed for her (you) :thumb:

Bryn&Mot
20th Jun 2009, 17:09
I think that the governments plan of intergration, by means of a couse/test was badly thought out.

It is for certain that a Thai living with a ,( well I hope that this doesn't get removed, I don't think its is racist to say it) white traditional British man/woman is already intergrating into society, and I don't think that the government gave a thought to this scenario.
I think that the governments intergration plans by way of test/course was aimed at immigrants who have not married a tradiotional British person, but immigrants who marry from similar backgrounds.
Unfortunately we have been caught up in the loop, and I suppose it could be construed as racist if the Government gave concessions to traditional British person.

Like I said before, get the result you need by the easiest, most suitable means possible before they either, stop short courses or change the rules whilst you are half way through a year course, now that would be my fear, Short course for me is a safe bet, get on it.

Wolfy
21st Jun 2009, 00:52
Morning Harvey, hope you've sobered up now mate, no need to consider the School for Common Sense old son you seem to have plenty of that. :thumb:

dan&ploy
21st Jun 2009, 05:36
You say our immigrant laws are draconian? but yet I could live in Thailand wife my Thai wife for the next 20 years, and I would never be granted citizenship, nor the right to remain indefinetly, indeed I would have to register with the police every 3 months and reapply for permission to stay every year, at any of these applications I could be refused and be forced to leave.

How did I miss this thread? :argue:

Peter, you can get permanent residency in Thailand, it is just that most choose not to do so or do not qualify or do not wish to pay the fees or don't mind the 3 monthly immigration reporting or don't know they can or won't learn the language.

I scraped through my school exams by studying previous papers, generously handed out by teachers, and making educated guesses as to the content of the exam - I expect you studied the entire syllabus while I was out playing football, very laudable of you.

As someone who married in the UK whilst Ploy had a visitor visa, (which was legal at the time but probably against the spirit of the law), I applaud anyone who finds a way to short circuit the visa system.

I am glad I do not have to get Ploy through the visa maze of the UK now, I would not have the patience for it and would be annoyed at how much more difficult, and expensive, it is compared to when we did before; as I mentioned, married whilst on a second visitor visa, (which is probably the most difficult visa to get for a Thai), FLR and ILR by queuing at 4.a.m outside of Croydon.

To put things in perspective we have just had our permanent residency here in Canada refused after two years of processing and about CA$7000 in fees, (using an immigration lawyer).
We had permanent residency granted in Singapore after one year of living there at a cost of about S$200.

Neither application required English tests for Ploy, (but I had to be able to demonstrate fluency), or any citizenship questions as we were not applying for citizenship, just PR.

In both cases Ploy is a dependent of me so is less vigorously scrutinised, (although it was her daughter's lack of documentation that got us refused PR here, even though she had no intention of ever living here).

So given the above and the fact that I am not a citizen of either Singapore or Canada I do think the visa regulations for a UK citizen marrying a foreigner are at the strict end of the scale.

Just my opinion. :shrug:

Wolfy
21st Jun 2009, 10:15
Hey Tobias, in case you hadn't noticed( :confused:) my ESOL 5 day Brum or Manchester post,which you have closed down, was done in jest,some of the more astute members spotted this :thumb:

BigRed
26th Jul 2009, 13:10
Originally posted by Harvey at home:

Yes you guessed it we don't know yet but will tell as soon as we know.


Any news?

Harvey at home
26th Jul 2009, 13:31
Originally posted by BigRed:

Originally posted by Harvey at home:

Yes you guessed it we don't know yet but will tell as soon as we know.


Any news?

Yes no problem and the covering letter and certificates are sitting surrounded by all the other Set M application data together with a payment of £1020 for the personal application on the 4th of August 2009 at Glasgow.

Will be happy when all this is over

Harvey

macduff
26th Jul 2009, 16:49
You've no problem with the cohesion route with your cert and letter.We have our ILR from liverpool with them said documents.

BigRed
6th Aug 2009, 06:52
Originally posted by Harvey at home:
... Yes no problem and the covering letter and certificates are sitting surrounded by all the other Set M application data together with a payment of £1020 for the personal application on the 4th of August 2009 at Glasgow.

Will be happy when all this is over

Harvey

Glad to hear it. Best wishes

peterinkendal
23rd Jul 2010, 18:48
If you accept that I am right then please explain how someone can go from esol level 2 to esol level 1 in the space of one week. Using this logic then someone who cannot speak english at all could advance 1 level each week and in the space of 3 months full time study be able to take a gcse in english.

Clearly these courses are designed solely to get people through the ILR requirement, therefore the course is designed to pass the citizenship test at the end of the course. The required advancement from one esol level to another is not tested by an approved body but by the course presenters, by way of a letter. Of course they are going to say that the student has advanced whether they have or have not.

Its a bit like taking a driving test but allowing the instructor to certify that the students eyesight is acceptable.

I do not criticise the course providers nor the students who get ILR from this route. But sooner or later the government will get wise to this short cut as more and more immigrants go down this route.


Looks like I was right, now the government has closed the loophole

http://www.thailand-uk.com/forums/showthread.php?7999-Changes-to-the-knowledge-of-language-and-life-requirement-for-ILR-Naturalisation

Harvey at home
23rd Jul 2010, 19:50
Don't think so the courses that were under discussion were all accredited and are still going strong Ie;
Sterling learning and Cohesion Etc

Extract from your link:http://www.thailand-uk.com/forums/sh...Naturalisation

f you submit your settlement application before 7 April 2010, it will be considered in accordance with the provisions in force on 6 April 2010. The college where you studied will not need to be accredited, but you will still need to have obtained an ESOL qualification from an approved awarding body following attendance on a course which contained citizenship materials.

Gary & Nok
23rd Jul 2010, 20:05
Something wrong with your link Harv! Doesn't work for me.

peterinkendal
23rd Jul 2010, 20:42
Don't think so the courses that were under discussion were all accredited and are still going strong Ie;
Sterling learning and Cohesion Etc


Harvey, me old mate! how are you doing?

I am not targetting any specific college and never have done. But just as bogus colleges have been identified in getting students visas so it was evitable that the home office would identify bogus colleges helping students circumvent the LITUK test.

Wolfy
23rd Jul 2010, 20:47
Cor Blimey, Peter in Kendal, in Kendal ? Your ears must be burning, how are you, back from your World wide travels then ?

peterinkendal
23rd Jul 2010, 20:58
Cor Blimey, Peter in Kendal, in Kendal ? Your ears must be burning, how are you, back from your World wide travels then ?

yup, but no longer in kendal, Bury now!

...why should my ears be burning??

Wolfy
23rd Jul 2010, 21:17
Because some of us have been talking about you being a modern day Lord Lucan, not a murderer you understand, just somebody who just seemed to disappear off the face of the Earth and this after being given a "Mod-ship". Anyway glad you are well, you've missed all the action up in Cumbria over the last few months, nutters running wild/floods etc.

Bury, good lord i haven't been there for a few years but i wouldn't imagine it has changed much.

Merseymike
24th Jul 2010, 01:10
...I am not targetting any specific college and never have done. But just as bogus colleges have been identified in getting students visas so it was evitable that the home office would identify bogus colleges helping students circumvent the LITUK test.

Succinctly put! I note that a sponsor of this forum states on its website that it can no longer operate because of Home Office rules:-

http://sterlinglearning.wordpress.com/

Wolfy
24th Jul 2010, 01:34
Hello Mersey, i'm not trying to rekindle our "friendship" (because we never had one) but i'd like to say what an interesting link/development. Does this mean the demise of Sterling Learning ?

Merseymike
24th Jul 2010, 02:43
No idea. I'm not associated with the company, and can't possibly comment upon its future viability. However, it seems for the time being it is defunct.

peterinkendal
24th Jul 2010, 10:33
Succinctly put! I note that a sponsor of this forum states on its website that it can no longer operate because of Home Office rules:-

http://sterlinglearning.wordpress.com/

Quite right too! (sorry Harvey)

These 5 day courses were never designed to teach anybody anything, just used by immigrants to get around the home office regulations. Like I predicted last year, the Home Secretary has seen enough people using this loophole and has decided to close it.

Tobias in another thread has stated that people getting ILR in this fashion should be able to get naturalisation without any further qualifications, but I would be very worried about it if i were in that position.

Harvey at home
24th Jul 2010, 11:09
Hello Peter and nice to hear from you again, we are nearly neighbours.

Sorry for not replying earlier but it was party time last night and the Skype thing this morning..!!!


In the absence of knowing why Sterling learning are not around any more, Me you or Mersey Mike cannot conjecture on why they are not around.
It would be interesting to know why, if they are indeed not around, maybe Mersey Mike knows more about it then He wants to say on here.

In regard to your comments on what Tobias had to say about the validity of these courses on getting Naturalisation with the same evidence that you gave for the ILR visa, if I remember rightly it does state that an applicant should use the same criteria for naturalisation that He/she used for the ILR visa ( within the guidance notes where the ESOL, LITUK test, aspects are concerned)
Thereby in my opinion confirming what Tobias said in that other thread.

Regards |Harvey

---------- Post added at 10:09 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

Ooooops!!!!!

Just saw your last post Peter with the ling from SL

Apology's seem to be needed, I could have deleted my post but what the heck I can enjoy being wrong for a change, eh Peter, Mersey Mike

Harvey

Tobias
24th Jul 2010, 11:19
... I am not targetting any specific college and never have done. But just as bogus colleges have been identified in getting students visas so it was evitable that the home office would identify bogus colleges helping students circumvent the LITUK test.

From my previous posts on this issue it is known that I am not a fan of these 'quick-fix' courses as I believe they go against the spirit of the requirements. Let me make one thing crystal clear, there is no suggestion that either Stirling Learning or Cohesion Legal Services are bogus or have ever been bogus or involved in any way in any underhand activity. Both organisations offered courses which were accepted for immigration purposes under the rules before the changes were made.

The content below has been copied from a similar discussion, I've copied it here as it has important information relevant to this topic.


Gary, that might have worked before the rules changed. Is Cohesion Legal Or Stirling an "accredited" college? I'm not convinced they are under the new rules. If I am correct, that qualification will not be recognised for ILR until they become accredited.


Oh yes, forgot about that. I will give Malic a ring tomorrow and see if I can find out.

Perhaps Sterling can post for them.


Tobias, I have received this mail from Cohesion which appears to confirm that they are still OK to use.
Hopefully you will agree but if not let me know and I can try to clarify with them any point.


Dear Gary,
Many thanks for contacting us and I would like to thank you for all your support and passing the good word of mouth for our services to the people you know and the Thai-UK Forum.
Yes, the certificates that we issue are still valid to be used for Indefinite Leave to Remain, Nationality and Tier work permit applications. I would like to also confirm that we have been confirmed by the Home Office that a college in our position falls within the definitions of 'accredited college' as we provide some publicly funded programs and are subject to Ofsted, LSC and ESF inspections directly or through our partnerships for contracts that we currently hold.
Once again many thanks for your kindly support and the good word of mouth that you provide on behalf of our centre. Please pass my best regards to your wife Nok and I wish you two all the best. Please contact us if you feel that we can provide to you any further services or support.
Kind regards,
Malik Sheikh

If (and I cannot confirm one way or the other) they are themselves directly inspected by Ofsted then they will be accredited under the new rules. I would advise anyone using a private college for Immigration qualification to get written confirmation from the institution before commencing a course that the college is an 'accredited college' and their qualifications and supporting documentation are suifficient for Immigration and Naturalisation applications to the UKBA.

If it then transpires the college is not accredited a claim for compensation can be made and properly evidenced.

Tobias
24th Jul 2010, 14:44
... Tobias in another thread has stated that people getting ILR in this fashion should be able to get naturalisation without any further qualifications, but I would be very worried about it if i were in that position.

Not sure which topic that was, but under the existing rules if an individual was qualified for the Life in the UK element when applying for ILR then they will also be qualified in this respect for Naturalisation.

Gary & Nok
24th Jul 2010, 18:11
Tobias, I think Peter was saying about people getting ILR by using the 5 day course should be worried about getting Naturalisation. I don't think he was referring to the Life in the UK route.

I could be wrong but that's how I read his post ;)

Tobias
24th Jul 2010, 18:32
They needn't worry about that Gary, that's the point of my 2nd reply. :thumb:

Gary & Nok
24th Jul 2010, 19:23
Oops sorry, misunderstood the meaning of the post then.

peterinkendal
24th Jul 2010, 21:01
Tobias, I think Peter was saying about people getting ILR by using the 5 day course should be worried about getting Naturalisation. I don't think he was referring to the Life in the UK route.

I could be wrong but that's how I read his post ;)

Gary you are not wrong that is exactly my point.

When applying for naturalisation and claiming exemption from lituk test on the grounds of esol with citizenship course, could the home office not reject the claim uder the new current rules even though ILR was obtained that way.

I am not saying that will be the case, but nevertheless if I were in that position I would be worried, especially when you consider the cost of the nonrefundable fee for naturalisation. Think I would try get my lady throught the lituk test, even if only for peace of mind

Tobias
24th Jul 2010, 21:06
Peter, I've already answered that - twice! That qualification will be accepted under existing rules. Let's not worry people unnecessarily.