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Noi & Nick
26th Mar 2008, 08:18
A new 'Asian fusion' (whatever that is) bar/restuarant has recently opened up in Woking, and one prominant item of decoration is a large head of the Buddha.

When Noi saw this through the window she was outraged. She says that using the image of the Buddha as mere decoration is insulting, even more so when it is being used to decorate a bar. She was similarly outraged a few months ago when she found out that a different place in Woking has a large reclining Buddha as decoration behind the bar.

I wonder what the reaction would be if a bar used Christian images as decoration; or Muslim ones :eek: !

Fortunately Buddhists tend to be less violent than either Christians or Muslims, and Noi's reaction is to simply refuse to enter these establishments.

Whilst not religious myself, I am saddened that others have such a low respect for the beliefs and religious sensitivities of others that they could use these, or any sacred, images in this way.

Dave and Wan
26th Mar 2008, 08:33
If memory serves me right wasn't there a similar discussion about a year ago when abar in Glasgow opened called Bar Buddha,which caused abit of outrage at the time because they used Buddha images.

ash
26th Mar 2008, 09:00
All Chinese restaurants and most Thai restaurants in Germany Switzerland and locally in France have Buddha images a plenty :confused: No one seems to be bothered by it :confused: (Thats within 30 kms of Basel )

The local Indian restaurants have Ganesh images plus other Hindu gods again does not seem to pose anyone a problem.

As to Christian images certainly would not bother me :cool:

If the Buddhas were being used as chairs , ashtrays or worse then I can see a problem but to set the theme :nod:

ash

rolyshark
26th Mar 2008, 09:29
Nick,have you considered writing to the restaurant to express your outrage and dismay that in this climate of culteral diversity they choose to alienate customers and polarise opinion?

Yo & Dave
26th Mar 2008, 12:30
Well Nick you do not need to wonder too much, if they were Muslim images the council would have stopped them, or Bin laden boys would have made a house call.
Personally I think there is too much PC in this country already, just ignore it, By the way there is a bar in Kanchanburi called Buddha bar, run by Thai & Farang.

JohnSwansea
26th Mar 2008, 14:22
Buddha bar, run by Thai & Farang.
Do they drink Buddha beer there :D

Yo & Dave
26th Mar 2008, 14:34
They might drink Bud, but looking at the colour of the place, I think they smoke Buds

DavidJohn
26th Mar 2008, 16:40
To comment on the comment made by Ash it is true that you will find Buddha images in restaurants and bars even in Thailand but they are there as objects of reverence not as a come on to attract custom and I believe that is what Noi is taking exception to.
My wife is upset when she sees Buddha images in garden centres as ornaments and placed on the ground or a bottom shelf. Buddha should be above all the other items and certainly not on the ground she tells me in no uncertain terms as if I can do anything about the garden centres shelf stacking although I do give in and mention it to the manager.

ash
26th Mar 2008, 23:24
To comment on the comment made by Ash it is true that you will find Buddha images in restaurants and bars even in Thailand but they are there as objects of reverence not as a come on to attract custom

Thats not the case here they are there to provide atmosphere and for marketing not as objects of reverence.

ash

DavidJohn
27th Mar 2008, 03:05
Quote from Ash:
---------------------------------------------------------
"Thats not the case here they are there to provide atmosphere and for marketing not as objects of reverence".
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Yes indeed that was my point.

Quote from Nick:
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"I wonder what the reaction would be if a bar used Christian images as decoration; or Muslim ones"
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I believe that the objects of devotion used in Islam and Christianity are not endearing to restaurant and bar goers as are the images of the Buddha unless it is Xmas or Easter of course. Then we see them everywhere! But I think a statue of Christ on a cross would put people off rather than attract them to a bar. And lets not think about a statue of Mohhamed attracting anyone to drink!!

colin244
27th Mar 2008, 12:38
A new 'Asian fusion' (whatever that is) bar/restuarant

We have a "fusion" recently opened in our town too and basically its an Indian Restaurant. When I poked my head in thinking it may be a Thai etc mixed Restaurant like one in Chelmsford (our County Town) it was clearly not but no Buddha images in sight.

NB The one in Chelmsford according to the wife is Arab as it does not have Pork (moo) on the menu so she declared it a no go area ;)
colin 244

Noi & Nick
27th Mar 2008, 14:28
Originally posted by DavidJohn:
To comment on the comment made by Ash it is true that you will find Buddha images in restaurants and bars even in Thailand but they are there as objects of reverence not as a come on to attract custom and I believe that is what Noi is taking exception to. Spot on. Most (all?) Thai restaurants, shops etc in the UK have Buddha and other images as objects of reverence and/or to bestow good luck and these are placed in a high position and treated with respect; exactly as they are in Thailand.

The images in these two bars, though, are there purely to provide decoration. They are placed low down (for a short time the Buddha head was under the open plan stairs leading to the first floor so that customers walked over the top of it!) and they are not respected at all.

It is this lack of respect that upsets Noi and her Thai friends.
Originally posted by Ash:-
they are there to provide atmosphere and for marketing not as objects of reverence. As I said before, it saddens me that that others have such a low respect for the beliefs and religious sensitivities of others that they could use these, or any sacred, images in this way. It saddens me even more that so many Thais in Switzerland would do this.

But it is their choice to put marketing above their religious beliefs.

Roly, the boss has told me not to bother complaining, she simply wont go into either place and encourages our friends not to either. Although I believe that a complaint by another Thai did get the image moved from under the stairs.

rolyshark
27th Mar 2008, 17:21
Roly, the boss has told me not to bother complaining, she simply wont go into either place and encourages our friends not to either.
Noted,but unless they're challenged how will they learn? They might be only too accommodating (and give you a slap up feed too :)).

Tobias
28th Mar 2008, 04:22
Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
... Thai restaurants, shops etc in the UK have Buddha and other images as objects of reverence and/or to bestow good luck ... Perhaps that's why they are also placed in the restaurant you complain about?


Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
... The images in these two bars, though, are there purely to provide decoration ... And I suspect that is exactly what the vast majority customers think about those found in Thai restaurants too.

Noi & Nick
28th Mar 2008, 16:32
From their positioning etc. (remember that one was under the stairs) they are most definitely not there for any religious purpose. As confirmed, I feel, by the following comment on their website (http://www.charliechoys.com/lotus-lounge.html)
The décor continues the oriental chic and and helps to provide an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy. Oriental chic and vibrant and sexy! This shows respect and consideration for other's religious feelings?

I suspect that most customers eating in Thai restaurants in the UK are unaware of the significance of the Buddha images therein, but that is, I feel, irrelevant as it is the intention of those that placed the image which is important.

Roly, I have now contacted them and made Noi's and my opinion known to them. I wonder if they will bother to reply.

Tobias
29th Mar 2008, 09:13
Originally posted by Noi & Nick:

The décor continues the oriental chic and and helps to provide an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy. Oriental chic and vibrant and sexy! This shows respect and consideration for other's religious feelings? It's a restaurant Nick, not a temple!

ash
29th Mar 2008, 10:38
Looks like a great deal will now recommend to all our friends :)

Nick we will be sure to mention the free advertising , remmber all publicity is good publicity

ash

DavidJohn
29th Mar 2008, 12:47
------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Tobias - โทเบียส

It's a restaurant Nick, not a temple!
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Sorry but as a restaurant surely it still shouldn't use religious objects or similies of religious significance to others as a means of providing:
quote:
The décor continues the oriental chic and and helps to provide an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy.

And as Nick said earlier in this theme he wondered "what the reaction would be if a bar used Christian images as decoration; or Muslim ones"
I, like Nick, am not a Buddhist but I respect peoples who are and feel their religious beliefs and feelings should not be offended for the sake of adornment to a restaurant.

By the way can anyone explain to me how does an image of Buddha 'contribute to the oriental chic and helps to provide an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy'?

ash
29th Mar 2008, 13:25
As a Christian I find images of gods offensive whether in restaurants or temple etc but I would never consider complaining unless of course they were erected in a church.

This is clearly not a Thai restaurant and the proprietors have a different view of whats appropriate , which in the UK is a right. If anyone feels that this is wrong go eat somewhere else. My wifes view is that they are not Thai so who cares the Chinese are different.

If this were my bar, I would not use the images as to my mind they definitely do not contribute to the atmosphere.

As to using Christian images they mean nothing to most Christians so why not.
ash

Tobias
29th Mar 2008, 14:15
We are fortunate to live in a relatively free society. We enjoy certain freedoms and privileges. If a restaurant choses to use a particular decoration then that is up to them, they have the right to chose what is placed in their establishment provided it is legal and not against public decency. If a customer doesn't like it, go to a different restaurant.

Some on here moan about political correctness, isn't this just another example of that? Why is it so offensive to have a statue? Some of them are very beautiful artistic pieces so why should they not be admired and enjoyed by those frequenting the establishment?

I've seen many such statues in Thai and Asian restaurants, indeed there are several restaurants named after the man himself.

Religion is for the religious, they have the freedom to follow their religion or practise their faith. Similarly those who like the statues are free to have one and display it. The restaurants are simply trying to create an ambiance, to present a little of the culture from the region associated with their cuisine, to offer a little authenticity - is that really so offensive?

N Barton
30th Mar 2008, 01:41
100 % behind Tobias on this one.
Leave the Buddhists to revere the Buddha image, and at the same time allow those that find it a beautiful artistic image to view it simply as that.
I have many many photographic images of temples, buddha statues etc etc which i have taken for their beauty. I have shown these to family and friends as that, a thing of beauty, and not as a symbol of my wifes religion. Par finds it all very pleasing and in no way offensive that we are attracted to the Buddha image. Even ASDA are selling a sitting Buddha as a garden ornament, can you imagine anyone wishing to have a cross in their back garden ??
A work colleague of mine has just had a beautiful Buddha image tattooed on his forearm, even though he is in no way buddhist and hasnt even visited a buddhist country. Par finds this very confusing as to why he would do such a thing but once again is in no way offende.
Like someone posted earlier, if the image was being used as chairs and ashtrays then this would be very offensive, but simply on display then i, and my Buddhist wife, cant see the problem.

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 02:19
I was, of course, aware when I made the original post that there would be those who agreed with me and those who didn't; that is life.

Tobias says
they have the right to chose what is placed in their establishment provided it is legal and not against public decency. So a line is obviously drawn somewhere. Would a restaurant displaying, for example, sexual images be allowed? I, for one, would not find such images offensive, merely boring, but I suspect that the answer is "No."

N Barton
30th Mar 2008, 02:53
I really fail to see how you can compare displaying the Buddha image to displaying Sexual images.

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 03:03
Fairly obvious, I'd have thought.

Using Buddha images in this way causes offence to some but is allowed.

Using sexual images in this way would cause offence to some but would not be allowed.

Tobias
30th Mar 2008, 03:11
Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
... Would a restaurant displaying, for example, sexual images be allowed? I, for one, would not find such images offensive, merely boring, but I suspect that the answer is "No." On the contrary Nick, in some of London's finest restaurants you will find artistic offerings depicting love, sex etc - lots of statues and paintings going back centuries depicting this indeed some of these works are proudly displayed in restaurants and hotels the world over.

If you are talking about porn, then yes this would (a) probably be illegal and (2) against what it considered public decency. Although I don't know of any restaurants (outside of the sex trade) that would want to put porn on the walls.

ash
30th Mar 2008, 03:28
This is a stupid debate as most restaurants sell Beef and pork which is offensive to Muslims and Hindus respectively to say nothing of Jews and the veggies. This is definitively offensive and alienates a goodly proportion of British citizens.

Should it be prohibited :confused: I don't think so.

Those who don't like it eat somewhere else :cool:

ash

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 03:28
Originally posted by Tobias:
....in some of London's finest restaurants you will find artistic offerings depicting love, sex etc - lots of statues and paintings going back centuries depicting this indeed some of these works are proudly displayed in restaurants and hotels the world over. Ah, yes. One person's erotica is another person's porn.
If you are talking about porn, then yes this would (a) probably be illegal and (2) against what it considered public decency Why are images that would offend 'public decency' (whatever that is) illegal, but images that offend some peoples religious sensibilities allowed? I guess it's all about who shouts the loudest. :shrug:
Although I don't know of any restaurants (outside of the sex trade) that would want to put porn on the walls. And I can't understand why any restaurant would want to use religious symbols in an attempt to create "an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy." :shrug:

Ash: missed the point entirely. :rolleyes:

N Barton
30th Mar 2008, 03:30
It would be illegal due it it being visible to minors, no comparison to the Buddha image whatsoever.
If a restaurant wanted to display such images i am pretty sure, and Tobias would probably know better, that if they blanked out the windows and advertised as an over 18 / 21 venue displaying such images then it would be legal.

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 03:36
I am talking about images that are on public display.

N Barton
30th Mar 2008, 03:47
But its a non-arguement because sexual images are not allowed to be sold or shown to minors under british law so therefore there is no way on gods earth, or Buddhas earth, that they will be allowed to be on public display. You think displaying sexually explicit images where they could be seen by minors is equivalent to displaying a Buddha image under a staircase, get a grip mate.
It is a totally different thing. I think you are being more offensive towards the Buddha image, by likening it to a sexual image, than any restaurant could ever be.

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 03:58
Originally posted by N Barton:
I think you are being more offensive towards the Buddha image, by likening it to a sexual image, than any restaurant could ever be. Please show me where I did that. Oh, you can't; because I didn't!

It is the restaurant that describes images of the Buddha as sexy, not I.

What I did do was say that some images that cause offence are allowed to be displayed publicly, others are not.

Such is life.

-Keith-
30th Mar 2008, 04:07
Nick,

Is today one of those days when you think to yourself, why the bloody hell did I bother :lol:

Keith

Tobias
30th Mar 2008, 04:11
Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
... Please show me where I did that. Oh, you can't; because I didn't!

It is the restaurant that describes images of the Buddha as sexy, not I... Where exactly does the restaurant say that?

I think it is you Nick who is missing the point. We live in a relatively free society that gives us a wide freedom of choice. Ash's point is valid in the context of this debate, what he said is completely true. Often Muslims are the ones accused of refusing the freedoms we enjoy but when I was in the United Arab Emirates (a Muslim state) I ate bacon and pork sausage for breakfast, I had pork belly in a fantastic restaurant and I drank wine, beer and gin! I was afforded the choices I would have enjoyed at home, many Muslims would be horrified that I could buy and consume such things in a Muslim state.

I enjoy the freedoms of living in the UK, I like that choice to follow (or not) a particular religion or faith - however I do NOT like having others religious beliefs affecting MY enjoyment and MY freedoms. We live in a multi-cultural environment in the UK where ALL religions and ALL people MUST accept everyones right to do or not do something (within the law).

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 04:28
Originally posted by Tobias:

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
....It is the restaurant that describes images of the Buddha as sexy, not I... Where exactly does the restaurant say that? From their website, and posted earlier, The décor continues the oriental chic and and helps to provide an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy.

I, too, have eaten pork and drunk alcohol in restaurants etc in Muslim states (although when I was last there you could do neither in the transit lounge at Doha) but in most to do so out in the street or on public display would be, if not illegal, then frowned upon I believe.

I think that this is off the point, though, because there is a big difference between Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc. accepting that other people eat what is, to them, forbidden food and someone using a religious object to provide an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy.
Originally posted by Keith&Mol
Is today one of those days when you think to yourself, why the bloody hell did I bother I do seem to be in a minority of one, for sure. I expected that there would be those who disagreed with me, this is a forum for debate after all and I am not going to get upset merely because some do not share my views (although they are, to be honest, Noi's views more than mine).

IMHO, with the right to free expression comes the responsibility to avoid needless offence. Unfortunately, though, we live in a society where everyone knows their rights but damn few care about their responsibilities.

Which is getting a bit heavy for what started out as an observation on the chosen decor of a pretentious bar/restaurant!

Tobias
30th Mar 2008, 04:43
I still fail to see where this restaurant describes images of Buddha as "sexy". They have not said that have they? It is you who has put words in their mouth.

Nick, the restaurant does not appear to me to be causing needless offence - or any offence for that matter. You still haven't answered my question though of why a statue is offensive, what makes it offensive? Why is it just so wrong?


Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
... Unfortunately, though, we live in a society where everyone knows their rights but damn few care about their responsibilities. Quite, but what's that got to do with a statue in a restaurant?

-Keith-
30th Mar 2008, 04:55
The food looks good :p

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 04:56
With the utmost respect, Tobias, I am surprised that a man as erudite as your self cannot see that your questions have already been answered in my previous posts.

The offense is caused because religious images are not being treated with respect. They are placed low down and one was where customers walked over it to reach the upstairs bar. They are not there for any purpose other than, to use the restaurant's own words, provide an atmosphere that is vibrant and sexy. They are being used in a way that would be deemed by most to be totally unacceptable were they Christian or Muslim images.

Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
... Unfortunately, though, we live in a society where everyone knows their rights but damn few care about their responsibilities. Quite, but what's that got to do with a statue in a restaurant? The answer to this lies in my preceding sentence, which you left out of the quote:- IMHO, with the right to free expression comes the responsibility to avoid needless offence.

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 04:59
Originally posted by Keith&Mol:
The food looks good :p According to my boss, who has eaten there once, it isn't. He reckons the Chinese buffet in Chertsey Road to be far better value.

No offending images, either. (Unless you're an Aldershot supporter as they have a Woking shirt signed by the team framed and hung on the wall. ;))

Tobias
30th Mar 2008, 05:21
I'm sorry Nick, I still cannot see the problem. I have read your posts a couple of times and cannot see how displaying these statues can be offensive or why a restaurant should not be allowed to use them in the context they have.

How do you treat a statue with disrespect?

Have you ever been to Rome, Malta perhaps or northern Portugal? There are several restaurants there with Catholic imagery and the like - all to do with ambiance rather than making a religious statement. I once visited a restaurant in a converted church in the UK, lots of statues in there too. As a Christian, I wasn't offended - given the context they looked the part.

Muslim images? I don't know if I know what a Muslim image is - although I have eaten in an Arabic restaurant in Manchester who had a couple of paintings of Mosques on the walls.

As I say, we live in a country where we enjoy certain freedoms - it's just a pity we have a few who do not want us to enjoy those freedoms and instead force their religious beliefs on the rest of us.

If the items were being used mockingly then I would fully agree with you, but that is not what this particular restaurant is doing.

-Keith-
30th Mar 2008, 05:34
Here's a pic of a restaurant in India. I wonder if they think that they're chic and sexy :lol:

http://satire.germanblogs.de/pub/germanblogs/satire-blog/hitler_restaurant.jpg

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 05:34
Originally posted by Tobias:
How do you treat a statue with disrespect? When we were packing up Noi's things for her move to the UK I put her Buddha image down on the ground. This caused great consternation and a rebuke from Noi as doing so was showing disrespect to the Buddha.

I am not a theologian, but I suspect that the disrespect was not to the statue, but to the concept which the statue represented. I was disrespecting the statue therefore I was disrespecting the Buddha himself.

That using religious images in this way does not cause offense to you is obvious, and I can understand and respect your view.

I have tried to explain that doing so does cause great offense to Noi and other Thais of our acquaintance, and why. It's a shame that you, and others, cannot understand that this is so.

ash
30th Mar 2008, 05:45
It's a shame that you, and others, cannot understand that this is so.

I understand perfectly but don't agree at all the restaurant is not in Thailand and is not even a Thai restaurant, they are almost certainly Chinese Buddhas and they have different traditions.

ash

Plus I did not miss the point :mad: as usual you choose to be obtuse :sleep: selling pork etc offends Muslims and Jews , selling Beef and leather goods offends Hindu's what about their rights ??

Tobias
30th Mar 2008, 06:23
Originally posted by Noi & Nick:
... I have tried to explain that doing so does cause great offense to Noi and other Thais of our acquaintance, and why... But you haven't explained 'why'. It's obvious they are offended, but it's the 'why' that is confusing the hell out of me. You mentioned the statues are being 'disrespected' but you don't say how they are being disrespected; you mention the restaurant say the Buddhas are 'sexy' - but those were your words not the restaurant's (to be accurate the restaurant actually says the 'atmosphere' is vibrant and sexy - and the definition of sexy in modern language use includes being appealing, interesting and attractive with no 'sexual' connotation).

Different religions have different peculiarities and customs, different cultures have their different peculiarities and customs. It is in this context we all have to be aware - in the UK we have our freedoms and privileges and those who have religious beliefs do so within that context. In Thailand it maybe considered disrespectful to use such images/statues in restaurants (although I have seen them in restaurants in Thailand too) but we are in the UK and the issues must be considered in that context. Yes, if these items were used as ashtrays or had them 'dressed' in inappropriate attire I would have sympathy with you. But here, in British society, there is nothing wrong in displaying such items. They are not there to be disrespectful or to provoke or taunt Buddhists, if they were then you would be entitled to be offended.

DavidJohn
30th Mar 2008, 06:31
Muslim images? I don't know if I know what a Muslim image is - although I have eaten in an Arabic restaurant in Manchester who had a couple of paintings of Mosques on the walls.
That is because the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament forbids the creation and use of images of God.
i.e. Thou shalt have no graven image of your God or anything in Heaven.
The ancient Israelites failed to obey this law in the desert and Moses, who was coming down from the mount was aghast when he saw the golden calf they had created as an object of worship. He had it destroyed and broke the tablets of stone up on which were written the 10 commandments.
Muslims or the practitioners of Islam obey this law, most christians do not obey this law in the main.

ash
30th Mar 2008, 06:46
most christians do not obey this law in the main.

Most Christians do :confused: plus the context was that you can't make an image or idol for worship i.e from the amplified bible "Exodus 20:4 You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

ash

Vinny
30th Mar 2008, 06:49
Ajahn Brahm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Brahm)'s Right View (http://www.bswa.org/audio/mp3/Brahmavamso_2006_02_10.mp3) explains that Buddhists can choose never to be offended.

ash
30th Mar 2008, 06:57
Interestingly according to this article Buddha images were maybe banned by early Buddhists
from http://www.slate.com/id//
"Many Eastern religions make liberal use of imagery—pictures of the Buddha and of Hindu gods are particularly widespread. Some historians theorize that early Buddhists banned religious imagery: You can find ancient art that uses symbols—like a tree, a wheel, or a footprint—where a picture of the Buddha would normally go. Sikhism, which merges elements of Islam and Hinduism, prohibits the depiction of God. Sikhs do allow images of their most important spiritual figures for inspiration."

ash

Plus its common in Thailand

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,4604,0,0,1,0

Noi & Nick
30th Mar 2008, 07:17
Originally posted by ash:
they are almost certainly Chinese Buddhas and they have different traditions. "They?"

Are you basing this comment on the one image visible in pictures on their website? Which is almost certainly in the Chinese tradition.

Or have you been to Woking and looked inside the place?

If you have done so then you would have seen that the Buddha head I referred to originally, the one that was under the stairs and is now next to them, is in the Thai tradition.

As is the reclining Buddha in the other bar I mentioned.

Not that it matters, as my objection is to the inappropriate use of any religious image.

As for the comments in your p.s., I refer you to the answer I gave to Tobias.

ash
30th Mar 2008, 07:38
Are you basing this comment on the one image visible in pictures on their website? Which is almost certainly in the Chinese tradition.

Or have you been to Woking and looked inside the place?

Yes and I fully intend to eat there probably in April when I visit my kids.

If you read the link I posted you will see that the abuse of Buddha images is rife in Thai society and is causing concern in Thailand to many religious Buddhists. e.g. "A few years ago when I went to inspect the controversial hotel in Chiang Mai, I saw many things which reflected a misunderstanding of the significance of Buddhist arts and beliefs," he added. "Some items were located in inappropriate places. They later changed the locations following our explanation."

He also lamented the temple objects used as decorative items in many commercial buildings. For example, the Dhammas seats which monks sit on while giving their teachings, or the cases which enclose replicas of the sacred teachings."

[ADMIN EDIT: Disrespectful remark removed] Nick, your assertion that most Thai restaurants in the UK would not do this is based on what ?? I take it you have been to all of them. Whereas I have been to all the Thai and chinese restaurants in this neck of the woods unless one opened in the past week.

You said your wifes answer is not to visit thats a fair perspective if coupled with an explanation as to why she finds the positioning offensive.

Cliff
30th Mar 2008, 09:58
We've just come home from shopping. One of the shops we visited was TK Maxx in Reading where they're selling Buddah 'head and shoulder' statuettes (bustettes?). The stock has been placed on a wooden platform, just above floor level. Thaiboi walked straight past the display without noticing, but I stopped him to commented about their close proximity to the floor. He just said that people in this country have no respect for Buddah, for God, or for each other. (This was right after some kid almost ploughed right through him because they both happened to have been trying to go through the same door at the same time. The kid was leaving as we were entering. Thaiboi had to jump out of his way and he didn't even so much as look at him, let alone apologise. So, we were talking about how little regard people generally have for each other here, compared to countries in Asia.) Of course, a lot of UK-based people don't realise that the Buddah should be respected and, if this is the case, that's okay, because they know no different. Still, it depends on the each individual situation and the intention of the people involved. I believe the person working in TK Maxx who placed the Buddahs on the floor didn't know any better and therefore didn't intend to cause any offence. Still, some people may still have been offended. Being offended is a choice and people may choose not to be offended if they so wish.

On a previous occasion, Thaiboi and I were taking a boat trip from Koh Samui to Koh Tao. The boat stopped at some of the other islands on the way, so to make things easier, passengers for each island were given different coloured stickers. Passengers for Koh Tao, including Thaiboi and I, were given little pink triangles to wear. Yes, seriously. I could have taken great offence to this, but chose not to make a fuss simply because it wasn't intended to be offensive (see below). It was an innocent mistake! They're probably still handing out pink triangles and possibly even yellow stars. :rolleyes:

So my point is that one should not be offended by something that is not intended to cause offence.

(Hitler's plan for a great Master Race had no room for any homosexuals. Homosexual inmates were forced to wear pink triangles on their clothes so they could be easily recognized and further humiliated inside the camps. Between 5,000 to 15,000 homosexuals died in concentration camps during the Holocaust.)

ash
30th Mar 2008, 11:03
So my point is that one should not be offended by something that is not intended to cause offence.

Amen to that :thumb: but a friendly explanation of the significance may be in order depending on the time and place :)
ash

DavidJohn
31st Mar 2008, 02:31
quote: From Ash
most christians do not obey this law in the main.
'MOST CHRISTIANS DO' plus the context was that you can't make an image or idol for worship i.e from the amplified bible "Exodus 20:4 You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

Although not in disagreement to what has been said in earlier posts just one point here: Very many Christians wear a crucifix which signifies Christ on the Cross and say he is in heaven and came from God the Father my point is this is covered by this commandment and it is not obeyed but flaunted.

ash
31st Mar 2008, 03:03
Very many Christians wear a crucifix which signifies Christ on the Cross and say he is in heaven and came from God the Father my point is this is covered by this commandment and it is not obeyed but flaunted.


It is not an image that is in anyway worshipped by the vast majority and it is certainly not an image of God. David John please note that the verse from Exodus is not a commandment and refers to images for use as idols as symbols to be worshipped.

ash

Noi & Nick
31st Mar 2008, 11:41
I posted an observation on the use of sacred images as decor in a bar/restaurant and Noi's reaction to it. It seems that we are in the minority in feeling that this is wrong, although I feel it is unfortunate that no Thai member has voiced an opinion as I would be very interested in what they have to say on the matter.

[MODERATOR EDIT: Some content removed to avoid going off-topic]

Noi & Nick
31st Mar 2008, 12:34
Just checked my in box and found the following
Thank you for your email
I will look into this matter & revert back to you
We do not intend to offend anyone

Regards

Charlie My reply
Thank you for the prompt response.

I am sure that you did not mean to cause offence, and await your further comments in due course.
Thank you

rolyshark
31st Mar 2008, 13:46
Charlie presumably being the restauranteur?

-Keith-
31st Mar 2008, 13:57
Charlie presumably being the restauranteur?

Nah it's got to be Ash ;) :D

DavidJohn
1st Apr 2008, 02:05
Quote from Ash:
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It is not an image that is in anyway worshipped by the vast majority and it is certainly not an image of God. David John please note that the verse from Exodus is not a commandment and refers to images for use as idols as symbols to be worshipped
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Sorry Ash but I disagree.
I think many people of a christian persuation wear the crucifix and also believe that Christ is the son of God.
Christ himself said to the disciples if you see me then you have seen God.
I also believe, however, that the word that we should have no images is a commandment.
I will not respond to anything more on Christian beliefs here as it is off topic.

ash
1st Apr 2008, 04:32
I will not respond to anything more on Christian beliefs here as it is off topic.
Agreed except in the context of religious icons being used as adornments in commercial establishments and not shown proper respect, which is unlikely to bother most Christians and is on topic.

DavidJohn
1st Apr 2008, 04:50
-----------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Ash
Agreed except in the context of religious icons being used as adornments in commercial establishments and not shown proper respect, which is unlikely to bother most Christians and is on topic.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ash we have agreement.

Now about cartoons on the wall of Mohhamed..........

Tobias
1st Apr 2008, 05:15
... Now about cartoons on the wall of Mohhamed.......... :lol: No thanks! Let's stick to one issue at time :eek:

ash
1st Apr 2008, 05:21
Now about cartoons on the wall of Mohhamed..........


He can have as many cartoons on his wall as he wants ;) its his wall after all :D
ash

Noi & Nick
2nd Apr 2008, 11:34
MODERATOR EDIT: Content deleted. Despite many warnings about your continued desire to challenge the moderation of these forums you again insist to re-introduce petty personal arguments with specific members of the forum after they have been removed by a moderator. These petty arguments serve no purpose other than to antagonise members. :bah:

caller
3rd Apr 2008, 05:17
Here in LOS my wife is wearing a crucifix around her neck as decor, as do others. As a Christian, I will forgive her.

caller
15th Apr 2008, 23:38
After my tongue in cheek comment above, just thought Id mention that here in Hua Hin, the tourist shops have Buddha images a plenty, including statues, heads et all, displayed at all levels - floor upwards. Doesn't seem to be an issue for the Thai's selling the stuff. I asked Ooy and she hadn't any issues about it - she's looking for something for a friend - and felt it had to be placed in context. Wisely, I didn't ask her to expand on that.

It's hot here!

sisaket
1st May 2008, 17:32
on a recent visit to northern ireland...my wife and i stayed at a small hotel in belfast...when entering our bathroom...we saw image of the budda on the floor near to the toilet.... at first she was shocked....but took the view that the manager/owners....did nt know this could upset....buddist......so she simply asked to talk with the manager/owner and explained to him......and that rather than being in a bathroom it maybe better in another part of the hotel ,somewhere higher and where everyone could see.... the owner did nt know....now he s a wiser man...and as removed the image from the bathroom.....so everyone happy...

Tobias
2nd May 2008, 01:37
What an excellent way to deal with the situation. It's all about communication isn't it sisaket? A gentle chat can bring about the desired result without the need to be indignant and resentful.