PDA

View Full Version : Marrying in Thailand and the UK



BigRed
25th Sep 2006, 05:48
Hope someone can help me here. When my wife joined me in the UK she was expecting a Christian marrage in addition to the civil ceremony in Bangkok and the traditional village do that we had done. This seemed to be for security rather than the wish for another big party as she was most interested in getting the paperwork. I assured her that not only was it not necessary but would in fact be illegal as we were already married.

She has now made friends with a Thai woman locally who has proudly shown us her wedding photos etc. She assures us she has done the legal paperwork bit both in Thailand and the UK. As a result my wife has stopped speaking to me (again). :bah:

What's the easiest way of showing her I am correct?

(I am correct aren't I :confused:)

BigRed

BigRed
25th Sep 2006, 05:48
Hope someone can help me here. When my wife joined me in the UK she was expecting a Christian marrage in addition to the civil ceremony in Bangkok and the traditional village do that we had done. This seemed to be for security rather than the wish for another big party as she was most interested in getting the paperwork. I assured her that not only was it not necessary but would in fact be illegal as we were already married.

She has now made friends with a Thai woman locally who has proudly shown us her wedding photos etc. She assures us she has done the legal paperwork bit both in Thailand and the UK. As a result my wife has stopped speaking to me (again). :bah:

What's the easiest way of showing her I am correct?

(I am correct aren't I :confused:)

BigRed

Lucky
25th Sep 2006, 06:22
You are correct

How you convince her is not so easy, can't really help you there. :rolleyes:

John
25th Sep 2006, 06:24
Print out some pics of the inside of a women's prison and ask if she wants to spend a few years there ... after she has committed the serious criminal offence of perjury.

And print out some directions to the nearest women's prison, so she knows where to go to visit her friend!

The UK "marriage certificate" ... have you seen it? I am just wondering whether it is a certificate issued by a Church in the UK in recognition that a "wedding blessing" has taken place?

maokaang
25th Sep 2006, 06:33
Sounds to me like a blessing too, very similar to a wedding ceremony, but no registration. Again, how to convince your wife is another matter. It would be interesting to get hold of a copy of this UK "paperwork".

Marcus
25th Sep 2006, 10:18
Dao often asks for exactly the same. She sometimes worries in case we are not really married because she's never walked down the aisle of a church in a wedding dress!

I think it is the need for security. Similarly, I've recently applied for Joseph's passport, and Dao is upset because I (and not she) signed the application form. She feels like she might be missing out on something, or that somehow I'm plotting against her behind her back!

But then I quite enjoy beng in Coventry. (The ticket home is purchased from ethaicd.com!)

peterinkendal
25th Sep 2006, 13:17
It is possible to have a church 'blessing' without the registry bit. Even if you did the legal bit (again), you are hardly likely to get into trouble. The bigamy law is designed to stop one from marrying somebody else and thus involves deception by one of the couple.

It may be technically a crime but nobody is going to bother to get records from LOS in order to charge anyone with bigamy.

Peter

Chris Buck
25th Sep 2006, 13:22
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
It is possible to have a church 'blessing' without the registry bit.
Yes you can, the question is directly answered here:
Church Blessing (http://www.cofe.anglican.org/lifeevents/weddings) :angel:

John
25th Sep 2006, 15:56
Even if you did the legal bit (again), you are hardly likely to get into trouble.

When giving the Notice of Intention to Marry you sign a form, which actually refers to the fact that making a false declaration on it is perjury. And on that form you certify that you are free to marry .... which clearly you are not ... because you are already married.

So, Peterinkendal here, what you say about a possible charge of bigamy is no doubt correct. But you overlook that the serious charge of perjury would be committed by signing the form saying you are free to marry, when that is not actually the case.

Tobias
26th Sep 2006, 01:18
Originally posted by John:
... So, Peterinkendal here, what you say about a possible charge of bigamy is no doubt correct. But you overlook that the serious charge of perjury would be committed by signing the form saying you are free to marry, when that is not actually the case. Absolutely correct, this is considered a very serious crime and being convicted of it will cause no end of problems in the future - you try and get home/car/travel insurance (for example) after such a conviction - or a mortgage.

John
26th Sep 2006, 02:30
When going along to the Register Office to give Notice of Intention to Marry, a form 1B needs to be completed, if the person is subject to Immigration Control :-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/05015501.gif

That makes a clear reference to the Perjury Act 1911.

This all raises a further point in my mind. A non-EEA Citizen who wishes to marry in the UK either needs ILR, or a fiancé(e) visa, or a Marriage Visitor visa, or a Certificate of Approval to Marry ("CoA"). The holder of a spouse visa is therefore not entitled to marry in the UK, unless they get a CoA, which clearly they will not get, because they are already married.

rolyshark
26th Sep 2006, 03:09
And print out some directions to the nearest women's prison, so she knows where to go to visit her friend!
It's possible she'd get sent to Styal in Manchester for initial assessment and then sent off to Foston Hall in S Derbyshire if she's lucky and it would be N Derbys courts dealing with matters. If not,the other nearest are in Wakefield,Lincoln and York. Either way it's a bit of a trek.

As compensation however,about 30% of the female prison population is ethnic minority and she'd be able to learn hairdressing at Foston Hall. Unfortunately about 80% of female prisoners have a diagnosable mental illnes,so it's unlikely to be a very pleasant experience. Up to her!!

Tobias
26th Sep 2006, 03:11
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
...It may be technically a crime but nobody is going to bother to get records from LOS in order to charge anyone with bigamy. You'll be surprised peterinkendal, the police will if they has suspicions or if a report is made, or any other law enforcement agency for that matter - and don't forget the other potential offences too :nod:

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 03:18
Absolutely correct, this is considered a very serious crime and being convicted of it will cause no end of problems in the future

Yes of course - I never said it wasn't a crime, simply that you are hardly like to be convicted of bigamy or for that matter, perjury when your action does not involve a victim.

People lie in court all the time but only ever get charged with perjury when an advantage has been gained as in the Jeffrey Archer case.

Attempted Suicide is a serious crime which I believe carries a maximum sentence of life if convicted. But how many failed suicides end up in Court?

My original comment was that it was technically a crime but you are hardly likely to be convicted. I stand by that. I know I am no lawyer but if you think I am wrong then please provide examples of people who have remarried (the same partner) without first disolving the original marriage that are now rotting in jail. They must be many people who have committed this 'offence'.

Peter

Tobias
26th Sep 2006, 03:23
You have missed the point perterinkendal - read the posts again. The point is about perjury, deception, false declaration etc, not about bigamy.

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 03:25
Posted 26 September 2006 10:09
quote:
And print out some directions to the nearest women's prison, so she knows where to go to visit her friend!

It's possible she'd get sent to Styal in Manchester for initial assessment and then sent off to Foston Hall in S Derbyshire if she's lucky and it would be N Derbys courts dealing with matters. If not,the other nearest are in Wakefield,Lincoln and York. Either way it's a bit of a trek.

Oh Pleeeze, how many bigamists are currently detained and how many of those have remarried the same partner? I would lay my mortgage on '0' on the second half of the question.

In fact if you find a case in say the last 20 years where either partner has even been convicted .... or for that matter cautioned you can have the value of my mortgage.

Peter

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 03:28
You have missed the point perterinkendal - read the posts again. The point is about perjury, deception, false declaration etc, not about bigamy.

Sure Toby I understand that. But I say again - how many people have actually been convicted or for that matter cautioned for committing perjury, bigamy, fraud or whatever offence you care to name for remarrying the same partner bigamously?

I would be astonished if you could find any at all in the vast database we know as t'internet.

Peter

rolyshark
26th Sep 2006, 03:42
In fact if you find a case in say the last 20 years where either partner has even been convicted .... or for that matter cautioned you can have the value of my mortgage.

I recall a case at a Magistrates' Court. The bigamist received a conditional discharge. I can't be too specific because of client confidentiality. In this particular case divorce proceedings had been commenced,but no decree nisi had been applied for and proceedings had never been stayed. The parties "remarried" and a month later the offences came to light,charges made etc etc.
In fact this was not uncommon in a certain area. I recall another case where we had to resurrect a divorce case and apply to the court to expedite the decree absolute. The grounds of the application were that if not expedited then a criminal offence would be committed at the forthcoming "marriage" ceremony.

I look forward to recieving your cheque by return :thumb: :lol:

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 03:43
Posted 26 September 2006 09:30
When going along to the Register Office to give Notice of Intention to Marry, a form 1B needs to be completed, if the person is subject to Immigration Control :-



That makes a clear reference to the Perjury Act 1911.

As the bigamy law states - it is an offence to marry someone when legally married to someone else.

As you would not be married to someone else no offence of bigamy is committed. Therefore there is no lawful impediment to the marriage and therefore you cannot be convicted of perjury for saying as such.

Errr, is my logic flawed?

Peter

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 03:48
I recall a case at a Magistrates' Court. The bigamist received a conditional discharge. I can't be too specific because of client confidentiality. In this particular case divorce proceedings had been commenced,but no decree nisi had been applied for and proceedings had never been stayed. The parties "remarried" and a month later the offences came to light,charges made etc etc.
In fact this was not uncommon in a certain area. I recall another case where we had to resurrect a divorce case and apply to the court to expedite the decree absolute. The grounds of the application were that if not expedited then a criminal offence would be committed at the forthcoming "marriage" ceremony.

I look forward to recieving your cheque by return

C'mon mate I'm not that daft just give me a teeny weeny bit of evidence ie newspaper report - date and court (not names) in which this occurred and once I have verified it my cheque will be in the post forthwith.
:D
Peter

rolyshark
26th Sep 2006, 03:54
I doubt it made the local papers,as generally they have more serious crimes to report,but try "The Ilkeston Advertiser". The first case was around 15 years ago and the second about 7 years ago.

rolyshark
26th Sep 2006, 03:56
The courts respectively would be Ilkeston Magistrates' Court and Derby County Court.

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 03:59
I doubt it made the local papers,as generally they have more serious crimes to report

Really? I am led to believe that perjury and false declaration are serious crimes as posted by a learned lawyer 8.18 this morning. :)

Again I say - give my proof and the cheque is yours.

Peter

Noi & Nick
26th Sep 2006, 04:14
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
As the bigamy law states - it is an offence to marry someone when legally married to someone else.

As you would not be married to someone else no offence of bigamy is committed. Therefore there is no lawful impediment to the marriage and therefore you cannot be convicted of perjury for saying as such.

Errr, is my logic flawed?

Peter Yes, because the subject isn't bigamy, it's perjury.

As you yourself acknowledged in a previous post

You have missed the point perterinkendal - read the posts again. The point is about perjury, deception, false declaration etc, not about bigamy. Sure Toby I understand that. If married in Thailand, or any other country, one cannot marry again in the UK without first getting divorced. That is the impediment to the marriage taking place, one is already married. To deny that would be perjury.

However, one can, if one wishes, either have a blessing ceremony at the religious establishment of your choice or a ceremony to re-affirm one's vows at a registry office. Neither of these would be an actual legal marriage, no register would be signed or marriage certificate issued.

Why are you making such a big deal of this, Peter? It's all a storm in a tea cup, isn't it?

John
26th Sep 2006, 04:18
See my post at 9:30 am today (UK time)! Under the graphic I point out that someone armed with a non-EEA passport CANNOT give the needed Notice of Intention to Marry.

Quite simply, if they have a spouse visa, they can't possibly get the needed CoA! End of story! Simply not possible to get legally married in the UK if you are already legally married abroad.

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 05:06
If married in Thailand, or any other country, one cannot marry again in the UK without first getting divorced. That is the impediment to the marriage taking place, one is already married. To deny that would be perjury.

Nick, I wondered how long it would be before you disagreed with me. No problem with that, but hey so far this discussion has been pleasant - lets try and keep it that way eh?

It is not a big deal really. Just an interesting discussion on the letter of the law.

Presumably the lawful impediment you refer to is the fact that you cannot get married as you are already married. Therefore you would be committing the offence of bigamy. Wrong. The offence of bigamy says specifically that it is an offence to get married while you are still married to SOMEONE ELSE.... As you would not be married to someone else then the offence of bigamy would not occur. Should you then not be committing the offence of bigamy by remarrying the same person signing a form saying that there is no 'lawful impediment' is not a lie and therefore cannot be perjury. If you disagree still then please tell me what other lawful impediment there might be to this marriage.

Oh and yes, I did say that it would be bigamy at first, but have googled the definition of bigamy it would appear that it is not.

Peter

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 05:09
See my post at 9:30 am today (UK time)! Under the graphic I point out that someone armed with a non-EEA passport CANNOT give the needed Notice of Intention to Marry.

Quite simply, if they have a spouse visa, they can't possibly get the needed CoA! End of story! Simply not possible to get legally married in the UK if you are already legally married abroad.

John

Yes, quite John. My point is about uk nationals remarrying I guess..... Oh ******, that would be off topic.....sorry

Peter

Tobias
26th Sep 2006, 05:44
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
... Presumably the lawful impediment you refer to is the fact that you cannot get married as you are already married... NO! The fact is that you cannot make a 'true' declaration of freedom to marry! Why? Because you are already married!

If you are "already married" you cannot make the declaration because being married is a "lawful hindrance" indeed it is an "impediment" to marrying again (even to the same person) - if you do make the declaration that you are "free to marry" when clearly you are unable to marry whilst already married, then you commit an offence of perjury.

As I said above, bigamy is not the issue.

rolyshark
26th Sep 2006, 07:27
Again I say - give my proof and the cheque is yours.
Are you sure? If I obtain a statutory declaration from my former client,will you pay up? I think not.
Accept it,most cases are not reported in the media. Certainly at Ilkeston there are usually far more serious cases than bigamy,it's like the Wild West! Not unusual for three of the four courts not to have any press in them at all.
For an example I was dealing with a murder case at Nottingham Crown Court (paedophile being stamped to death by vigilantes) and not a single member of the press sat in court for the verdict,as the case in the adjoining court was more sensational,albeit less serious (Maxine Carr).

Thaddeus
26th Sep 2006, 10:03
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
It is not a big deal really. Just an interesting discussion on the letter of the law.

No such thing really..... it's the law or it isn't .... a discussion about legalities between lawyers or barristers or judges, would be a discussion.... any other input from me or other people of similar legal qualifications will usually be one thing..... tripe.

Noi & Nick
26th Sep 2006, 11:19
Originally posted by peterinkendal:
Nick, I wondered how long it would be before you disagreed with me. The law is the law. What you are saying is not true, as pointed out by two experienced and highly qualified lawyers. It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with you, as what you are posting is simply untrue.
No problem with that, but hey so far this discussion has been pleasant - lets try and keep it that way eh? That is up to you. The last time I posted an opinion you disagreed with you accused me of flaming. :shrug:
Oh and yes, I did say that it would be bigamy at first, but have googled the definition of bigamy it would appear that it is not. Shame you didn't do that before starting this ridiculous discussion.

Moral: When two highly qualified lawyers comment on what the law says, not what their opinion is but what the law actually says, a layman trying to prove them wrong only proves his own foolishness.

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 12:33
a layman trying to prove them wrong only proves his own foolishness.

Nope didn't really think that you were capable of keeping it pleasant. Serves me right for feeding you I suppose I'll know better next time.

Peter

peterinkendal
26th Sep 2006, 12:36
Are you sure? If I obtain a statutory declaration from my former client,will you pay up? I think not.

You doubt my word but I am true to my word. Statutory declarations are not required. Just the case number and the court in which it was heard will be sufficient.

Peter

Thaddeus
26th Sep 2006, 15:54
Originally posted by peterinkendal:

a layman trying to prove them wrong only proves his own foolishness.

Nope didn't really think that you were capable of keeping it pleasant. Serves me right for feeding you I suppose I'll know better next time.

Peter

"I suppose I'll know better next time."

I doubt it.

Noi & Nick
27th Sep 2006, 00:57
PiK, when you're in a hole, stop digging.

John
27th Sep 2006, 01:43
I think this topic has run its course .... so I am closing it.