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  1. #1
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    Default Concealing Thai Citizenship on British Passport Application

    Section 8 of the on-line passport renewal application form for a child says, ".You will only be asked to complete those sections necessary to establish Nationality..... For those born after 01.01.1983 the father's details will not always be needed. Please start with your mother's details."

    However, it then insists on one entering something for the mother's nationality.

    Does the section on the mother need to be completed if one obtains a blank form rather than entering the data the on-line? Can one simply record the mother's nationality as 'not British'?

    The reason for being so obscure is that dual nationals may be stripped of British nationality if the Home Secretary deems that so doing is conducive to the public good - and there have definitely been cases of people born in Britain being so stripped of British nationality. Pleas to strip the British-born (raised and educated) wife of President Assad of Syria of British nationality do not seem to have been rejected. I therefore see no reason to risk adding to my British-born daughter's woes should she go off the rails. My wife's being settled in the UK at the time of her birth is not relevant to my daughter being British. My daughter does not have a Thai passport, so there is no need to lie about the holding of one.

    While detailed search and integration of Home Office records may indicate that my daughter probably has Thai nationality, I see no reason to make repression easy.

  2. #2
    R.I.P. colin244's Avatar
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    No idea mate but an expert will no doubt come along soon that does.

    Interesting question though and I understand your point.

    colin 244

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    Old Hand มือเก่า galahad's Avatar
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    I,m not sure I understand the problem if your wife holds dual nationality.She can be British in the UK and Thai in Thailand.

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    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Richard, I think you are overreacting here. I'd just fill out the paperwork with all the information requested.
    Tobias - โทเบียส

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    Forum Regular สมาชิกประจำ
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    He's done a similar topic on Thai Visa that was closed.

    http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/...nited-kingdom/

  6. #6
    Premium Member Gary & Nok's Avatar
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    Richard, I am not sure why you are so concerned about this (on here or on the other Forum), unless of course the person you are referring to intends on becoming such an infamous terrorist or something of such serious nature that this dreaded action of stripping them of their British Citizenship might be warranted, in which case IMO they would absolutely deserve it.

    No 'normal' citizen would ever encounter such problem.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by galahad View Post
    I,m not sure I understand the problem if your wife holds dual nationality.She can be British in the UK and Thai in Thailand.
    That would solve the problem, but she doesn't. If she were British then the passport application form would give little hint that my daughter also held Thai nationality.

    The issues is the Home Secretary's power to strip any dual national of British nationality 'if conducive to the public good'. It used to be that if you were born British you couldn't be deprived of British nationality. Now you can if it won't make you stateless, regardless of the strength of your connection with Britain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary & Nok
    No 'normal' citizen would ever encounter such problem.
    I'm not so sure, unless you are simply stating that committing a crime is not 'normal'. In some areas the number of criminal convictions is quite high, though I suppose I should relax because girls are less likely to be jailed. If the law only allowed the removal of nationality for treasonable behaviour one could relax, but as it stands it seems that any offence collecting more than 12 months (and last summer's rioters got some stiff sentences) would be grounds. The offences on the watch list for deportation include some of the dangerous driving offences. Note that no actual conviction is required to deprive someone of British citizenship.

    I can't find any policy statement by the current government, but when the law was new "Mr Hoon also confirmed the deportation of criminals would apply to anyone in possession of dual nationality" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4972164.stm . The only policy statement that I can find is that prisons don't need to report discovering their charges hold Irish citizenship, because, by policy, Irish criminals are rarely deported from Britain. However, other cases of dual nationality are to be reported - Section 2.7 of
    PSI 52/2011 http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/...si-52-2011.doc .

    The nearest to a reassuring policy statement I can find is Immigration Rule 399a - but I'm not sure that the 'no ties' requirement would apply in our case. Part (a) reads "(a) the person has lived continuously in the UK for at least 20 years immediately preceding the date of the immigration decision (discounting any period of imprisonment) and he has no ties (including social, cultural or family) with the country to which he would have to go if required to leave the UK" and Part (b) is a similar get-out clause for younger people. This rule raises the sentence threshold from 12 months to 4 years. I appreciate these are deportation rules, but there is limited point in removing someone's nationality and then not excluding him from the country.

    I wish Tobias had been able to reassure me that my fears were groundless.

    Returning to my original question, it seems I shall have to get a passport application from from the post office and see what information it demands.

  8. #8
    Premium Member -Keith-'s Avatar
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    Richard W, are you scared of cracks in the pavement ?

    Once your daughter becomes British, she would have to do something pretty heinous for the government to even consider stripping her of her citizenship.

    I don't want to sound rude, but you really are being a bit ridiculous.
    If you're offended by any assistance I give, it says far more about you than it does me.

  9. #9
    Premium Member Gary & Nok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    I'm not so sure, unless you are simply stating that committing a crime is not 'normal'.
    OMG, how did your parents raise you if you can even consider that committing crimes is normal

    Well "in some areas" its about time parents took control of their wayward kids isn't it!

    When I was young my parents taught me right from wrong, I believe that I have learned from that and have stuck to that upbringing. If I misbehaved I got a slap round the legs or sent to my room/bed and that 'brutal' treatment has not done me any harm.
    Unfortunately with this nanny state we currently live in discipline has gone out the window and a lot of (not all) parents let their kids get away with murder.

    To me, (as some people on here will know) anyone that breaks the law deserves what they get and if it means stripping them of British Citizenship then so be it, that person should have grown up with respect for other people and peoples property and the country they live in. And if it serves as a lesson for others to take heed and live a better life then all well and good, that rule/law will have served its purpose.

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    Moderator richardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    ............dual nationals may be stripped of British nationality if the Home Secretary deems that so doing is conducive to the public good - and there have definitely been cases of people born in Britain being so stripped of British nationality.....
    There has never to my knowledge been any case of a person British by descent ( as oposed to British by naturalisation etc whether or not British born) being stripped of their nationality. I must comment that in my professional opinion that circumstance is almost inconceivable.


    Richard
    Richard
    It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardb View Post
    There has never to my knowledge been any case of a person British by descent ( as oposed to British by naturalisation etc whether or not British born) being stripped of their nationality.
    Of the 15 people stripped of British citizenship through application of Section 56 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 by 16 June 2012, 5 were born British - http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/...4-16b.102921.h . The first person so stripped was British citizen by descent David Hicks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_H...itizenship_bid , though you'll probably tell me he isn't the sort of person you meant by 'British by descent'. He may well be the only one of the 15 that one might describe as of long-standing British descent, and of course, he was not born in Britain.

    Richard.

  12. #12
    Premium Member -Keith-'s Avatar
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    Is your daughter a terrorist ? has she been training in Afghanistan or Pakistan ? Are you over reacting ? Are their aliens on Mars ?

    ps: They're coming to get us you know

    pps: be careful they watch this site, they're everywhere
    If you're offended by any assistance I give, it says far more about you than it does me.

  13. #13
    Premium Member Gary & Nok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Keith- View Post
    Are their aliens on Mars ?
    Er, yes.

    Alien on Mars bar.jpg

  14. #14
    Premium Member -Keith-'s Avatar
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    I knew it
    If you're offended by any assistance I give, it says far more about you than it does me.

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    Furniture เฟอร์นิเจอร์ ian1208's Avatar
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    Hang on guy's. Lets not mock this OP until we understand why he has asked the question.

    Richard, can you give us an indication of why you think this may be of importance to you.
    (apart from the obvious withdrawal of citizenship)
    Judging others before you have met isn't a wise option.

  16. #16
    Premium Member caller's Avatar
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    Wow, thats the 1st time I've looked at TV for soooooo long - it looks dreadful! How on earth does anyone use it?

  17. #17
    Moderator richardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    O The first person so stripped was British citizen by descent David Hicks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_H...itizenship_bid , though you'll probably tell me he isn't the sort of person you meant by 'British by descent'. .
    No if I am wrong I appreciate the learning curve.

    If the wikipedia entry is to be believed it only enhances my respect for British Judges. Secretary of State says no to Mr Hicks being British on account of his mum ( He was at the time and still is an Aussie though incarcerated in Guantanamo at the time) . The Courts including Collins LJ ( the darling) kick the S of S's arse. S of S totally fails at the Court of Appeal and does not even make it to the House of Lords. The Courts ORDER the S of S to declare Hicks British. All understandable so far.

    Then according to Wikipedia S of S having been ordered to grant Hicks British citizenship does and then KPAOW it gets removed and there are no legal challenges.

    As far as legal challenges go given what the Courts ( Wiki Version) had said so far on the case "my gran could have put that one in the back of the net"

    Hicks was then released from Guantanamo and lives back in Australia.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    Of the 15 people stripped of British citizenship through application of Section 56 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 by 16 June 2012, 5 were born British - http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/...4-16b.102921.h . T.
    Now that is interesting if only for the way the question is phrased and answered

    The question was

    "To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many times the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 has been used to deprive a person of British citizenship; and how many such people were British-born citizens."

    The answer was

    "Since that date 15 individuals have been deprived of their British citizenship. Of these, five had been British since birth."

    Scary? Not really 5 poor kids were British since birth and then it was discovered their parents had lied and cheated to get naturalised. Sad but not ground breaking news.

    And the other 10? Nothing in the stats to suggest that there citizenship was removed for public policy reasons most likely for getting it fraudulently.

    Quite frankly I am shocked that only 15 individuals ( which might actually mean 1 or 2 families ) have been stripped of ( fraudulently obtained nationality ) since 2006.

    Someone should tell the Daily Mail. Only 15 since 2006

    ps the actual answer was qualified with:

    "This information has been provided from local management information and is not a National Statistic. As such it should be treated as provisional and therefore subject to change"

    Meaningless then

    Richard
    Last edited by richardb; 4th Oct 2012 at 23:58.
    It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian1208 View Post
    Richard, can you give us an indication of why you think this may be of importance to you.
    (apart from the obvious withdrawal of citizenship)
    And apart from the fact that I need to renew my daughter's British passport?

    I grew up believing that if you were born British, you could remain British for life. It offends that this is no longer true. (By the way, it was fair enough that if claiming Britishness was objectionable enough, you could be hanged. You would still be hanged a British citizen.)

    Perhaps you have heard the saying, "Home is where they have to take you in." The Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 is saying that my British-born daughter's homeland is Thailand. (Note: Not just my daughter, but the children of many of us. Many of us may be risking worsening our children's futures through having obtained them a Thai passport. That thought should be angering many - but perhaps it's hard to contemplate that one's children may turn out to be less than ideal citizens.)

    The question about passports held is new. I had actually considered getting my daughter a Thai passport, but put it off because of the presence of the defence industry in our town. If she has held a Thai passport, she would probably have to renounce her Thai citizenship to get British security clearance, whereas if she has never held one, it seems she would not have to renounce Thai citizenship. (I am extrapolating from what I have heard of the situation as regards unexercised Pakistani citizenship.) Now, it may just be that the question about foreign passports in the passport application form is to establish a database of passports held so that the e-Borders scheme may properly associate people and passports. However, I would not be surprised if that database is consulted to check for dual nationality when people are convicted of serious crimes.

    Note that we have one poster here who thinks that depriving half-Thai British-born children of British citizenship for serious crimes is perfectly reasonable.

    The electronic passport application form's insistence on irrelevant details about her mother was worrying. What legitimate reason does the government have for wanting to know my daughter's mother's nationality? Are they checking for nationalities my daughter may have, and if so, why?

    It is not that I expect my daughter to commit a serious crime, but the thought that she might. (She has expressed an interest in driving a car, and motoring offences are often committed unintentionally.) Additionally, it's always possible that a future government might remove her citizenship for being in an unruly demonstration.

  19. #19
    Premium Member caller's Avatar
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    Richard, you live in a scary world!

    2 lawyers have answered your question, but it seems you wish to continue to raise your greater concern and threats as you perceive them.

    Thank you for doing so, but is there any point in continuing?

  20. #20
    Furniture เฟอร์นิเจอร์ ian1208's Avatar
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    Ok Richard. So in simple terms, you believe that if your daughter has where her mother is born on a passport application, you consider this might have repercussions leading to her being stripped of her nationality and passport?
    What legitimate reason does the government have for wanting to know my daughter's mother's nationality?
    It has been so long since I last looked but is this not stated on the birth certificate? I know it is on mine and I was born in Hong Kong. Or is it just the father???? Cant remember....................

    Anyway Richard. IMHO and all things considered, I believe your daughter has more to gain from having dual nationality in whatever form that takes while it is allowed. The positives outweigh the negatives.
    Judging others before you have met isn't a wise option.

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