Emirates

[Yo & Dave]

Emirates being taken to task on not paying compensation to delayed passengers,here's the link .
http://www.thenational.ae/uae/emirat...or-disruptions

[Flip]

From the above link:

'Eithad described the CAA’s decision to blame the airline in public as "unprofessional and unacceptable" '

Perhaps the CAA should ask Etihad what punishment they administer to passengers who are delayed. As I know only too well, they lose their tickets!

[Yo & Dave]

here's a case that emirates lost.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....rates-12696441

[wunderbar]

From the above link:

'Eithad described the CAA’s decision to blame the airline in public as "unprofessional and unacceptable" '

Perhaps the CAA should ask Etihad what punishment they administer to passengers who are delayed. As I know only too well, they lose their tickets!

Why would you lose your ticket ??

[Tobias]

To update the outcome of the news story reported in the OP, Emirates lost its Appeal before the Court of Appeal. They subsequently appealed that decision to the Supreme Court and that application for leave to Appeal was refused.

[Flip]

Why would you lose your ticket ??

I didn't actually lose it. We were late due to a mixture of traffic and bad weather. The last passenger was still standing at the check in desk when we got there but Etihad were adamant that we could not fly - they'd given our seats to stand-by passengers.

I tried to negotiate stand-by seats on the next flights but was told they didn't offer stand-by seats. When I pointed out that our seats were given to so called stand-by passengers, I was advised it was staff on stand-by.

OK fair enough, they have to call time at some point but passengers get held up just the same as airlines do - there is a need to flexible on both sides. Interestingly, I asked Emirates what their policy would have been and was told that we would have been put on stand-by.

As it happened, I had to buy 2 new tickets at a cost of £1200.

[wunderbar]

I didn't actually lose it. We were late due to a mixture of traffic and bad weather. The last passenger was still standing at the check in desk when we got there but Etihad were adamant that we could not fly - they'd given our seats to stand-by passengers.

I tried to negotiate stand-by seats on the next flights but was told they didn't offer stand-by seats. When I pointed out that our seats were given to so called stand-by passengers, I was advised it was staff on stand-by.

OK fair enough, they have to call time at some point but passengers get held up just the same as airlines do - there is a need to flexible on both sides. Interestingly, I asked Emirates what their policy would have been and was told that we would have been put on stand-by.

As it happened, I had to buy 2 new tickets at a cost of £1200.

Your original post came across as it was Etihads fault but you were simply late for check in. Nothing to do with "losing your tickets"
Imperative if on outbound sectors to be on time as most (but not all) airlines red card the entire ticket. It costs £40,000 an hour to park a wide body at Heathrow with fines for late departure at around £1500 a minute so its not a case of being flexible
I was listed on Etihads website just after they started up as the 4th passenger to achieve gold card. Since then have only flown them once (no real reason)

[Flip]

Semantics......people who 'lose' an appeal in court don't actually lose it do they?

As usual Wunderbar, you are supporting the airline industry and missing my point and it is a case of being flexible. Regardless of the reason, how many times are airlines late? Sh*t happens and it happens to passengers as well as airlines - there are countless reasons why someone may be late to check in, its not something I aim for. Providing they don't reach the threshold for compensation, airlines don't have to do anything for customers if they are late. Many years ago I flew in to Heathrow on a flight that was, I think, 1.5 hours late - our plane had been sat on the apron at Tashkent for over an hour without explanation. As a result I missed my connecting flight to Leeds/Bradford. As usual, because I'd booked the 2 tickets separately I could not claim anything.

What did Etihad lose by me being late? They actually gained, they got their staff to Abu Dhabi and the flight left on time. The next flight may well have left with empty seats and it would have cost them nothing to let us have them.

I don't no why you wish to tell everyone that you were the 4th passenger to obain a gold card from Etihad - are we supposed to be impressed? By the way, not that it makes a difference to my point, I was at Manchester, not Heathrow.

[Tobias]

... It costs £40,000 an hour to park a wide body at Heathrow with fines for late departure at around £1500 a minute so its not a case of being flexible ...

Woooah, where have you grabbed those figures from? The charges are much lower than that, parking is free for the first 90 minutes and then charged in 15 minute increments at the rate of £52.37 (fifty-two pounds) for wide bodied aircraft.

I suspect MAN charges are not as ‘high’ as those at LHR.

[Big AL]

Just before Christmas I flew to BKK and then caught a flight to Phuket. I had to cross the airport to get to the domestic terminal, which I did as fast as I could. I then found a huge mass of people waiting to get through a checkpoint. At the checkpoint they checked our boarding cards, passports and immigration forms. By the time I got through my fight time had passed. I was then in another mass of people waiting to get through another check, which was just the same as the first one. Then a third check. Then security check. Several times I pointed out to staff that I would miss my flight: they just smiled and said that I would not. When I had got through the last check I raced down the terminal in case the flight was being held. It was. I boarded the plane and immediately saw my wife and daughter, who had flown to Thailand 5 days before. The plane continued to wait for more than another hour, while more people turned up.

Returning to the UK the queue at BKK was absolutely massive.

Lots of people delayed and huge amounts of time wasted because too few staff are employed.

[Flip]

Returning to the UK the queue at BKK was absolutely massive.

Lots of people delayed and huge amounts of time wasted because too few staff are employed.

Have to say that I agree, I returned to the UK on 4 March and I've never seen Suvarnabhumi so busy. One thing that seems to be happening is that the 'priority pass' system seems to be losing its status. I get it from Etihad due to the amount of flights I've put in - and very grateful I am for it. However, this time the queue for priority, security and immigration was massive - from what I could make out, an entire flight was granted priority. The usual 'pushers in' were trying to avoid the queue but for once, there was a guy at the front catching them. I'm pretty sure I'd have been faster in the normal queue. It was particularly disappointing as my flight was at 01.55 so I arrived very early hoping to have plenty of time to relax in the lounge. I lost almost an hour of that in that queue.

Its been clear from my last few arrivals at Suvaranbhumi that the place is beginning to creak - however, having all the immigration booths open would improve things a lot. I wasn't aware of this before but an airport staff member told me a second terminal will be built soon.

[wunderbar]

Semantics......people who 'lose' an appeal in court don't actually lose it do they?

As usual Wunderbar, you are supporting the airline industry and missing my point and it is a case of being flexible. Regardless of the reason, how many times are airlines late? Sh*t happens and it happens to passengers as well as airlines - there are countless reasons why someone may be late to check in, its not something I aim for. Providing they don't reach the threshold for compensation, airlines don't have to do anything for customers if they are late. Many years ago I flew in to Heathrow on a flight that was, I think, 1.5 hours late - our plane had been sat on the apron at Tashkent for over an hour without explanation. As a result I missed my connecting flight to Leeds/Bradford. As usual, because I'd booked the 2 tickets separately I could not claim anything.

What did Etihad lose by me being late? They actually gained, they got their staff to Abu Dhabi and the flight left on time. The next flight may well have left with empty seats and it would have cost them nothing to let us have them.

I don't no why you wish to tell everyone that you were the 4th passenger to obain a gold card from Etihad - are we supposed to be impressed? By the way, not that it makes a difference to my point, I was at Manchester, not Heathrow.

You got the hump because I simply pointed out you were late for check in....simple as. As regards the Etihad comment think what you like buddy....perhaps if you had been gold you wouldnt have been offloaded

- - - - - - - u p d a t e d - - - - - - -

Woooah, where have you grabbed those figures from? The charges are much lower than that, parking is free for the first 90 minutes and then charged in 15 minute increments at the rate of £52.37 (fifty-two pounds) for wide bodied aircraft.

I suspect MAN charges are not as ‘high’ as those at LHR.

Comedy gold. Free for an hour and a half and then £200 an hour on delays !! You need to start watching a few airlines programmes. Even Easy jet at Gatwick are charged £62 a MINUTE for overstaying push back.

[Flip]

You got the hump because I simply pointed out you were late for check in....simple as. As regards the Etihad comment think what you like buddy....perhaps if you had been gold you wouldnt have been offloaded

You can lead the horse to water.............. I give up but would point out 2 things:

1. I wasn't offloaded.

2. I am Gold and have been for years.

[Tobias]

... Comedy gold. Free for an hour and a half and then £200 an hour on delays !! You need to start watching a few airlines programmes. Even Easy jet at Gatwick are charged £62 a MINUTE for overstaying push back.

I think you are being a little gullible here, wunderbar. I don't rely on TV entertainment programmes for my information. My information is taken from the source, I acted for an airline who wanted to claim compensation from Heathrow so I needed to be aware of the landing charges, passenger service charges and ancillary charges imposed by the airport.

Now the documentation I have is endorsed confidential which means I am unable to share it with you, however I am able to share the publicly available information. Indeed I will provide you with the fees for 2018, which have risen slightly.

A wide-bodied aircraft will be allowed to park at LHR without additional charge for the first 90 minutes, after such time the charge will be £53.11 for each 15 minutes.

A narrow-bodied aircraft (of the ilk used by easyJet) will be allowed to park at LHR without additional charge for the first 30 minutes, after such the charge is £22.13 for each 15 minutes.

You don't believe me? Look at Schedule 5, Section 3 of the Heathrow Airport Limited Conditions of Use including Airport Charges from 1 January 2018:
https://www.heathrow.com/file_source...f-Use-2018.pdf

[Carl]

I think the issue here might be the difference between the cost Heathrow chargesand the costs to the airline including stafff time and aeroplane lease for unproductive time etc

[Tobias]

Yes, Carl, I'm sure there will be an associated cost over and above the parking, but I was simply responding to the assertion that there was a £40,000 per hour charge for parking at LHR on late departures - that is clearly not true as the actual cost is a tiny percentage of that.

Even if you take in to account any ancillary charges/costs you are looking at a small fraction of the £40,000 figure quoted. Aircraft are utilised with a little 'give' in the schedule to ensure that IRROPS can be handled and where there are significant delays aircraft can be utilised again later in the schedule without too much a delay further on. In that context the aircraft lease argument would carry no weight.

[Flip]

Yes, and again this works both ways. Passengers may suffer a variety losses because a flight is late - as I did when I missed my connecting flight due to the late arrival of my flight.

[Carl]

Agree completely I was just trying to bridge the gap

[Tobias]

Yes, and again this works both ways. Passengers may suffer a variety losses because a flight is late - as I did when I missed my connecting flight due to the late arrival of my flight.

And this is exactly why the Emirates judgment is so important. Emirates said that because the delay giving rise to the claim was caused by the first flight leaving late, the delay for that flight was under the EC261/2004 limit for compensation. As the second flight was not flying from within the EU, that flight was outside the scope of EC261.

The Court of Appeal rejected that argument and stated that it is the time the passenger arrives at the destination that matters, not the time the passenger arrives at the connection point(s). Ergo, if a flight departs an EU country and a passenger is delayed in arriving at their destination because of a delay making their connection compensation under EC261 is payable notwithstanding that the connecting flight originated outside the EU.

[Flip]

I'm guessing though Tobias, that in the Emirates case, the connecting flights were also on Emirates. What I'd like to see is airlines being held to account when a late flight causes a passenger to miss a connecting flight on another airline/different ticket.

What would actually be refreshing is for a little more fair play from the airlines in general. In the example I gave in an earlier post where, through no fault of my own (nor the airline's), I was too late for check in. I was seconds late and had to buy new tickets yet airlines have to be several hours late before they have to pay compensation. In my case, the whole matter could have been settled and goodwill retained if I'd been allowed to take a stand-by seat on the next flight.

My view of airlines as rip off merchants is also strengthened by their behaviour on the few occasions where I've wanted to change a flight. Not once has this simply involved the fee to change - amazingly, the available seats have without fail, been more expensive. On some occasions, I've turned these more expensive seats down due to the cost and often wonder if that flight left with the seat unfilled?

I also wonder, if after having changed my flight, the airline sells the seat at the same price I paid for it - I doubt it. No doubt anyone enquiring about changing their seat and being offered the one I'd vacated, would also be told it was a more expensive seat.

Although in recent years the EU rulings on compensation have set matters partially right, I still feel the airlines get far too much of their own way. I appreciate that airlines are trying to make a profit, often on some very competitive routes but once you've bought a ticket, it seems the customer/airline relationship becomes very one sided.

At some point over the next couple of years I will lose my frequent flyer status as I will be flying far less and with it, lounge access - the only reason I stay with Etihad. At that point I will be voting with my feet due to some appalling experiences with Etihad's customer services. Whether or not I find an alternative airline with a more customer focused attitude remains to be seen.