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  1. #61
    Veteran ผู้มีประสบการณ์ toddmeister's Avatar
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    This has been debated before and I posted then that we have been on both sides of he fence. My wife came to the UK in 2011, before the NHS surcharge was introduced. She did work part-time and then full-time until the birth of our son in 2013. I have no idea how much the cost of a typical pregnancy is to the NHS, but when you take into account initial consultations, scans, additional scans which my wife required, also a consultant suggested having a Thai translator present at one scan obviously an additional cost, not to mention the birth itself and a two night stay in hospital. I would guess that alone would be in the thousands if not tens of thousands in care costs. My wife also went on to utilise the 12 months free dental care given to mothers after giving birth and has used the NHS on numerous other occasions. All of this without paying anything toward her treatment other than ni & tax.

    My wife went back to work full-time when our son was old enough and began to make a lot more money. She made multiple FLR applications before achieving ILR. Two of which we did have to pay the NHS surcharge but again after a few years of paying into the system. I would imagine even on a salary of £80k the contributions over a 5 year period would be a fraction of the actual care costs for someone needing even a low level of care/treatment.

    I believe the surcharge is a small & fair price for anyone not "settled" even if they have been paying NI & tax for the little time they have been here.

  2. #62
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray8472 View Post
    Yet she is paying taxes and NI the same as you and I, and we don't pay it. why should she or anyone else have to pay twice ? Anyway she will have ILR soon and then citizenship after that so then it is no longer payable.
    She isn't paying twice, this is a common misconception. The NHS surcharge, as ash rightly points out, is intended to cover contributions that have not been made. This is not an insurance policy but a contribution to the cost of running the NHS.

    You and I and everyone else who lives and works in the UK have been paying our contributions from the very first day we started to work. It is only right that those who chose to come to live here make a contribution to the provision of the service as soon as they arrive here, after all that service is available to them free of cost at the point of delivery as soon as the aircraft carrying them lands on British soil.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmaussy246 View Post
    I think that it is good and fair and everybody should pay that includes anybody outside the uk even the ones who live in Europe
    At present EU/EEA citizens are entitled to free treatment as a reciprocal arrangement with those countries. A Brit (and their non-British family members) also receive treatment in the EU/EEA.

    That said, from 1 January 2021 all foreign nationals (including those from the EU/EEA) will be required to pay an NHS surcharge if they chose to live and/or work in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary & Nok View Post
    It's just a shame that it is not applied to all that come/visit here. Then we would not have such a massive bill owed by foreigners for using the NHS while here.
    Visitors do not have to pay any NHS surcharge, but neither are they entitled (with limited exceptions) to free NHS treatment.

    The exceptions principally include treatment in a hospital Accident and Emergency department and GP and nurse consultations in primary care.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    It’s better to be 6 feet apart than to be 6 feet under.

  3. #63
    Premium Member Gary & Nok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Visitors do not have to pay any NHS surcharge, but neither are they entitled (with limited exceptions) to free NHS treatment.

    The exceptions principally include treatment in a hospital Accident and Emergency department and GP and nurse consultations in primary care.
    They may not be entitled to the free NHS treatment but it doesn't stop it from happening Mr T.
    The obvious cases that spring to mind are those people that come here and then "suddenly" find they are about to drop a baby or two.

    I'm not sure if you would class that as an A&E case but the majority of these "incidents" are most certainly planned to take advantage of our (in most cases) superior NHS treatments.
    Bye Bye EU Day 31st December 2020 (11 p.m.)

  4. #64
    Premium Member ash's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if you would class that as an A&E case but the majority of these "incidents" are most certainly planned to take advantage of our (in most cases) superior NHS treatments
    Very few NHS treatments are superior except for emergency critical care but the care is free. Given a choice and if money is not an issue I would have chosen Thailand for my heart attack treatment but I agree the NHS is best for unplanned emergencies.

    All countries provide emergency care and will treat first charge later our problem is given the free at point of use nature of the NHS we suck at recovering the monies owed
    Human beings are seventy percent water, and with some the rest is collagen

  5. #65
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary & Nok View Post
    They may not be entitled to the free NHS treatment but it doesn't stop it from happening Mr T.
    The obvious cases that spring to mind are those people that come here and then "suddenly" find they are about to drop a baby or two.

    I'm not sure if you would class that as an A&E case but the majority of these "incidents" are most certainly planned to take advantage of our (in most cases) superior NHS treatments.
    That would be a chargeable service, and future visits to the UK can be stopped if the bill to the NHS is not settled.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    It’s better to be 6 feet apart than to be 6 feet under.

  6. #66
    Premium Member Gary & Nok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    That would be a chargeable service, and future visits to the UK can be stopped if the bill to the NHS is not settled.
    Horse and Bolted comes to mind
    Bye Bye EU Day 31st December 2020 (11 p.m.)

  7. #67
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    i have seen that those working for the front/key/workers will have there fees waived ..

  8. #68
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    My mate's appendicks burst a few years back and his insurance didn't cover it. The bill was over 1500 quid in total. I had a very small operation in China last year which was over and done with in a few hours, cost - nearly 450 quid. If us ex-pats were offered what the NHS provide for 52 quid a month we'd bite your hand off. That also covers visits to doctors and any mental health service. If you're in my predicament you'd be paying double for psychiatry if it meant fixing the missus' head!

  9. #69
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    Yes but you also don't pay UK taxes if your an expat! We pay twice. And no waffle from Tobias and others will convince me that this charge is just. The NHS should be free for all UK residents and paid for from our taxes not used as a pawn in the governments ideological offensive to reduce immigration numbers.

  10. #70
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    Totally agree. If you are working full time and paying taxes and NI, and you pay NHS surcharge on top, you are paying twice. Crystal clear to me.

  11. #71
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Yes but you also don't pay UK taxes if your an expat! We pay twice. And no waffle from Tobias and others will convince me that this charge is just. The NHS should be free for all UK residents and paid for from our taxes not used as a pawn in the governments ideological offensive to reduce immigration numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ray8472 View Post
    Totally agree. If you are working full time and paying taxes and NI, and you pay NHS surcharge on top, you are paying twice. Crystal clear to me.
    The indignation here is palpable, but it is misplaced. Those foreigners who chose to settle in the UK must pay their own way. They must contribute to the cost of having access to the NHS. They are entitled to treatment on the very first day they set foot on British soil, only right they pay for that privilege.

    You might call it waffle Carl, I call it protecting the UK taxpayer. Why should the UK taxpayer subsidise the NHS for the benefit of foreigners who chose to come and live here? Some British citizens pay taxes and NI contributions for decades and rarely (if ever) use the NHS. I don't hear them protesting.

    I do wonder what the attitude would be of those who display this indignation had they not decided to bring their foreign spouse over to live in the UK. I doubt very much they would be singing the same tune.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Those foreigners who chose to settle in the UK must pay their own way. They must contribute to the cost of having access to the NHS. They are entitled to treatment on the very first day they set foot on British soil, only right they pay for that privilege.
    They do pay, they are paying tax and NI just like you and me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I do wonder what the attitude would be of those who display this indignation had they not decided to bring their foreign spouse over to live in the UK. I doubt very much they would be singing the same tune.
    Irrelevant, the NHS surcharge didn't exist when I brought my wife over. It is wrong in principle for someone to have to pay this if they are in full time employment and under the tax and NI umbrella.

  13. #73
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray8472 View Post
    They do pay, they are paying tax and NI just like you and me...
    Not on the day they arrive, and in many cases they don't start work for a considerable period, if they work at all. The majority of the UK population have been paying in to the system for a considerable period. Why should a foreign national who chooses to come and live here not make up for all those missed contributions?

    I welcome immigration to the UK, but not if those choosing to come and live in our communities become a burden on the British taxpayer.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
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  14. #74
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    But it has been proven time and time again that Immigrants are not a burden on our society but a massive financial boost. In fact the immigration to the UK over theist 20 years is the main reason we are not facing a even more massive pensions crisis....

    "Recent immigrants: The UCL report found that although there had been a fiscal cost of immigration overall, recent immigrants (who arrived since 2000) had made much greater fiscal contributions than longer-established immigrants.
    It estimated net fiscal impacts of +£5 billion for recent immigrants from the ten countries that joined the EU in 2004 (A10 countries) and +£15.3 billion for other recent EEA migrants (EU14 countries). The study also found that while A10 migrants worked mostly in lower wage occupations, they were also more likely to be employed, offsetting the impact of their lower wages.
    Recent non-EEA migrants had an estimated impact of +£5.2 billion. However, the contribution of each group fluctuated over the period."

    The reality is the Health surcharge is part of the Governments Hostile Environment. It is a clever way of making life harder for migrants and is abhorrent to the principles of the NHS. Which is not an insurance scheme or a charity but a service we should be paid from our taxes.

    I could not agree more Ray.

  15. #75
    Premium Member caller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    But it has been proven time and time again that Immigrants are not a burden on our society but a massive financial boost. In fact the immigration to the UK over theist 20 years is the main reason we are not facing a even more massive pensions crisis....

    "Recent immigrants: The UCL report found that although there had been a fiscal cost of immigration overall, recent immigrants (who arrived since 2000) had made much greater fiscal contributions than longer-established immigrants.
    It estimated net fiscal impacts of +£5 billion for recent immigrants from the ten countries that joined the EU in 2004 (A10 countries) and +£15.3 billion for other recent EEA migrants (EU14 countries). The study also found that while A10 migrants worked mostly in lower wage occupations, they were also more likely to be employed, offsetting the impact of their lower wages.
    Recent non-EEA migrants had an estimated impact of +£5.2 billion. However, the contribution of each group fluctuated over the period."

    The reality is the Health surcharge is part of the Governments Hostile Environment. It is a clever way of making life harder for migrants and is abhorrent to the principles of the NHS. Which is not an insurance scheme or a charity but a service we should be paid from our taxes.

    I could not agree more Ray.
    What you have shown here, is proof of nothing.

    Newer arrivals making 'a greater fiscal contribution' does not equate to money being seen by the NHS.

    It is also difficult to use statistical data in isolation from the whole of the report as it can be used out of context, as LSE found out pre-Brexit when they stunned everyone by claiming there was a net gain from uncontrolled immigration. It then transpired the data they had rushed to release related only to those highly qualified professional immigrants who you would expect, at a personal level, to do just that, as by and large they make no claim on the welfare state, bar the NHS and obviously pay taxes on healthy salaries. When the full report was released, it showed a net cost to the taxpayer.
    'Tis me

  16. #76
    Premium Member sisaket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Yes but you also don't pay UK taxes if your an expat! We pay twice. And no waffle from Tobias and others will convince me that this charge is just. The NHS should be free for all UK residents and paid for from our taxes not used as a pawn in the governments ideological offensive to reduce immigration numbers.
    I beg to differ having had to pay a lump sum this month to HMRC (snottgobbling nest of vipers)
    bangkok mags

  17. #77
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    ... The reality is the Health surcharge is part of the Governments Hostile Environment. It is a clever way of making life harder for migrants and is abhorrent to the principles of the NHS. Which is not an insurance scheme or a charity but a service we should be paid from our taxes..
    You are right, the NHS is not an insurance scheme. It is a service provided free at the point of service to everyone who lives in the UK. That service is paid for by the individual residents of the UK who have been contributing to the cost of running it over a period of many years often without using the service often for considerable periods at a time - but they continue contributing to it without feeling hard-done-by.

    If a foreign national wants to enjoy everything the UK has to offer then they must contribute to the cost of providing it. If they consider making a modest annual contribution to the NHS a hostile gesture then perhaps the UK is not a place they value sufficiently to enable them to join in our community.

    As I said earlier, I support immigration to the UK. I welcome all with open arms if they are going to contribute to what makes the UK a great nation. But they must pay their share for the services they are entitled to as residents of the UK and not expect the UK taxpayer to subsidise their choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Yes but you also don't pay UK taxes if your an expat!
    Correct. And and expat doesn't get free NHS treatment either!
    Tobias - โทเบียส
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  18. #78
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    They do after they have been back 12 months and they don't have to pay £650 to return.

    Tobias I find it strange that you agree with my rationale but then struggle to see the inequity of the NHS surcharge which is a tax on migration in reality.

  19. #79
    Moderator Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    ... Tobias I find it strange that you agree with my rationale but then struggle to see the inequity of the NHS surcharge which is a tax on migration in reality.
    The only inequity is that those choosing to come and settle in the UK would expect the UK taxpayer to fund their use of the NHS.

    Expats will have likely paid tens of thousands in to the UK exchequer before heading to faraway shores. In any event, it is only right that a country looks after and treats its citizens fairly.
    Tobias - โทเบียส
    It’s better to be 6 feet apart than to be 6 feet under.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Not on the day they arrive, and in many cases they don't start work for a considerable period, if they work at all. The majority of the UK population have been paying in to the system for a considerable period. Why should a foreign national who chooses to come and live here not make up for all those missed contributions? .
    I think you have this fundamentally wrong. The NHS surcharge is for future care, not a backlog payment.

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